Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Breeding => Topic started by: Susan Mouw on March 22, 2016, 08:40:33 AM
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While there is much talk about, and work on, the "project" colors for acceptance into the APA and, hopefully, ABA Standards, Ernie Haire reminds us that we still have work to do with the 8 accepted varieties that are already part of the Standard.
I'm not much of a "project" gal myself, though I've had splash wheatens. Since it is a natural result of blue wheaten crossed with blue wheaten (as well as other combinations), it really isn't a project color. This year, I have added blue to the line-up here at Sand Castles Farm, so will probably have splash this season or next.
So, what variety is everyone working on? what are the challenges with that particular variety and what is your plan for combating those challenges?
With the wheatens and blue wheatens, the ever present black in the hackles is my target "work in progress". I've seen a few without the black in the hackles and they are just gorgeous! So my goal is to eliminate it in my lines.
My plan of attack is pretty simple - I pick the wheaten and blue wheaten chicks that have no black on them at hatch at all. When they've grown a little and have their adult feathering, I pick the cockerels with the best type and the least of amount of black. I will also cull pullets with any black in their hackles. Then I just take the best back to the best and hope I don't lose other aspects of the coloration in the process. So far, I haven't, but I keep watching.
I brought in a new line of wheatens/blue wheatens last year (from Paul Smith) and have set up my breeding pens to cross the keepers back into my lines. It will be an interesting year to see what I get out of that outcross.
I'd love to hear how other people are working with the challenges in each variety. :)
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I am strange about "type". We try to breed toward the Standard that has been approved and accepted by the APA. I guess "type" is so important to me because we worked hard to gain the APA acceptance of the Marans. First it was the Black Coppers, then the Wheatens, and finally the Whites. Within a couple of years of getting them approved, the race was on to have the biggest Marans at the shows. We started seeing big, loose feathered birds with little to no color in the hackles. Long story short, we were seeing too much Orpington in the Black Copper and Wheaten Marans that were being shown. White Marans started showing up that were almost as big as White Rocks. Those White Marans produced more yellow legged chicks than white legged chicks. Strange how that works. With every breed, there is a Standard that we and judges should be using.
In Large Fowl we are working with Blacks, Blues, and Whites here. Like everyone else, as long as we have Blues breeding to Blues we will have Splashes. We will be focusing more on them the next couple of years to help the club with gaining their acceptance.
We have also added Bantams to the mix here We are really enjoying working with them and hope to be able to add more this year. The most challenging thing that we have found with the Bantams in locating them. We have searched for two years and finally acquired Whites last fall and Blacks this spring.
Be Blessed,
Ernie Haire
Poultry 2XL
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In Large Fowl we are working with Blacks, Blues, and Whites here. Like everyone else, as long as we have Blues breeding to Blues we will have Splashes. We will be focusing more on them the next couple of years to help the club with gaining their acceptance.
Be Blessed,
Ernie Haire
Poultry 2XL
I Like Ernie have had occasional Splash chicks in my Blue breeding program. Before, they either were sold or axed with the exception of a 3 year old cock that I saved because I really liked his type while growing out. Since we are starting to move toward acceptance of Splash, I will start keeping more Splash for
breeding and showing as AOV.
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I am in complete agreement with Ernie's post. Type is critical to whatever is done. It is so easy to lose sight of this fact. I am seeing Large Fowl Ameraucanas that are truly becoming "large"..... some very obviously over the weight limits of the SOP for the breed. I do hear the occasional judge comment on the size.....that Ameraucanas are getting too big. I've always tried to breed to the standard and have no intention of following the "trend" with this "bigger is better" size thing.
As far as the "project" colors are concerned the Wheaten/Blue Wheaten varieties are what I breed in both LF and Bantam so I will work on the Splash Wheaten project as it will go hand in hand with what I have now. I'm not concerned with the hens but do have some concerns about the "color" on the males with the Splash Wheatens. It has taken me 5 years to raise a Splash Blue Wheaten Marans male that suits me. I sure hope it doesn't take that long with the Ameraucanas ! Wheaten is Wheaten....Blue Wheaten is Blue Wheaten.....no matter the breed so until someone can show me different I intend to use this Splash Blue Wheaten Marans male as a color guide. Any of the multi colored approved varieties all need constant work plus we know what a challenge trying to breed the correct Buff color can be....so I think we have plenty to keep us busy.
But it's great fun !!!!
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I am in complete agreement with Ernie's post. Type is critical to whatever is done. It is so easy to lose sight of this fact. I am seeing Large Fowl Ameraucanas that are truly becoming "large"..... some very obviously over the weight limits of the SOP for the breed. I do hear the occasional judge comment on the size.....that Ameraucanas are getting too big. I've always tried to breed to the standard and have no intention of following the "trend" with this "bigger is better" size thing.
I agree with you Peggy on the size issue with what is being shown vs the standard. I feel sometimes the judges are at most of the fault because they tie those birds and pay no attention to the weight standard. Mike Gilbert made several posts on this subject years ago. There is suppose to be a percentage grace given for overage, but most of the judges were allowing 2-3 times the percent overage that was allowed. I guess their opinion was the bigger the better. This is not limited to Ameraucanas , or even LF and bantam. I raise and show Wyandotte Bantams and the same issue will pop up here and there at shows.
Two issues that I am working on in my Wheaten/Blue Wheaten are better combs and better egg shape when compared to by Black and Blue varieties in those areas. Along with Susan the black in the hackles will pop up, mainly in the wheaten line. This doesn't seem to be a major problem in my flock, but just an area for occasional culling.
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Recently, I clerked for a judge at a small local show. While we were on the bantam row, the other judge was judging the Ameraucanas in back of us. As he walked away, I heard him say that "these Ameraucanas need more size!"
Granted, I do need some size on a couple of my black hens (they are just under 5.5#, but within the tolerance), but he said this after putting away my 7# wheaten cockbird. He is at the top end of the standard size, with the overage allowances. My other cockbird, shown that day, is also at 7# and one of the hens is pushing 6#.
How do you deal with that? I really don't want 8# cockerels and 7# hens!
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The judge that judged us this weekend at the South Texas State Fair told me after the show that the Ameraucana breeders were getting their birds too big for the Standard. I have to say that this judge judged with his APA Standard Of Perfection close at hand and referred to it many times. I thought that he did a great job of judging the Ameraucanas. Before anyone starts to wonder, I didn't win the breed and still agreed with the way the Ameraucanas were placed. LOL!!!
Just Saying,
Ernie Haire
Poultry 2XL
Arp, Texas
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Before anyone starts to wonder, I didn't win the breed and still agreed with the way the Ameraucanas were placed. LOL!!!
Just Saying,
Ernie Haire
Poultry 2XL
Arp, Texas
Ernie, better luck next time!
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There has been a problem with oversize LF for decades. The term Bigger the Better is always been the motto of many breeders. Some would argue that the larger birds were not as viable, would have trouble with fertility, couldn't set eggs, etc. I am not sure I would agree with those statements. But I do know that the Plymouth Rocks are way above standard weight and still are quite viable. The AMs and Plymouth Rocks are supposed be about the same, (I am sorry....actually they are quite different in weight according to standard. I should have looked checked the standard before I put my foot in my mouth) But...Next time you go to a show take a look at the two breeds. When you compare the two, and you see how much bigger the Rocks are, probably still above their standard, you can see why some might think the AMs are too small.
Many Bantam breeds/varieties are over sized too. And I do agree that the whole intent in having bantams is to keep them small. Some breeders will hatch their show bantams later in the year to allow less time for the birds to grow in size. But if these same birds are bred and eggs hatched earlier the next season, they will grow too big for the standard that year. It is just an artificial size restraint. Some judges pay attention to the size on bantams but in my experience most judges will ignore the weight limits on the LF.
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There has been a problem with oversize LF for decades. The term Bigger the Better is always been the motto of many breeders.
Many Bantam breeds/varieties are over sized too. And I do agree that the whole intent in having bantams is to keep them small. Some breeders will hatch their show bantams later in the year to allow less time for the birds to grow in size. But if these same birds are bred and eggs hatched earlier the next season, they will grow too big for the standard that year. It is just an artificial size restraint. Some judges pay attention to the size on bantams but in my experience most judges will ignore the weight limits on the LF.
Don, I think that sums it up very well! What is a viable solution to get shows back to showing per the standard?
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Finding a solution to over-sized birds that everyone would agree on would be harder than finding the Golden Ticket to Willie Wonka's factory. I expect some would want to change the standard. And also I don't think that the weight limits are a problem with all of the varieties? You sometimes hear folks say they are trying to increase their size in several varieties or lines. And another issue might be that some birds have more fluff and look bigger and not actually over weight. Only the scales will tell the whole truth according to standard.
The best solution for weight would probably be to self regulate the breed. Everyone should start to weigh their birds before each show and, We could start to weigh entries at the bigger shows. This would help the judges get the right size in their minds too. But underweight birds could be D'Qd too, right? That might probably cause more exhibitors to be disqualified. It would not create warm fuzzy feelings with all of the members.
We have discussed in the past that it would be helpful to have some discussion seminars about type at some of the bigger shows. This would give folks a chance to ask questions and discuss topics about the breed with others. Hopefully everyone could agree on the type and new folks would learn from the experienced breeders.
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There has been a problem with oversize LF for decades. The term Bigger the Better is always been the motto of many breeders. Some would argue that the larger birds were not as viable, would have trouble with fertility, couldn't set eggs, etc. I am not sure I would agree with those statements. But I do know that the Plymouth Rocks are way above standard weight and still are quite viable. The AMs and Plymouth Rocks are supposed be about the same weight. Next time you go to a show take a look at the two breeds. So when you compare the two, you can see why some might think the AMs are too small.
Many Bantam breeds/varieties are over sized too. And I do agree that the whole intent in having bantams is to keep them small. Some breeders will hatch their show bantams later in the year to allow less time for the birds to grow in size. But if these same birds are bred and eggs hatched earlier the next season, they will grow too big for the standard that year. It is just an artificial size restraint. Some judges pay attention to the size on bantams but in my experience most judges will ignore the weight limits on the LF.
I saw a beautiful white Rock hen at the show in Lake City two weeks ago, but she was huge! I didn't look at the standard, but I bet she was 7+..or bigger.
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If she was visibly Large, then she probably was above their standard weight too. After checking the APA standard the weights of the two breeds are very different. The cocks/hens in AMs are 6.5/5.5 and the Rocks 9.5/7.5. So there should be a visible difference. The feathering should be similar, not too hard and not too soft, (But just right) But seeing the birds side by side would make the AM look too small in my mind anyway.
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The standard does allow 20% over or under the weight. So by my calculations the range is;
Cock 5.2-7.8 Hen 4.4 - 6.6
Jump in anyone if this needs correcting.
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If you read the standard, the key word that keeps popping up is "medium". What I was told, is that Ameraucanas were never meant to be a heavy LF breed. I think emphasizing that to judges will help eventually help.
But I believe Don is correct, one long time judge was told me that there is no such thing of too big of a large fowl. I think this mentality needs to be changed.
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I am so glad to see all this! Right now, I am weighing my birds, and I seem to have a HUGE cockerel and one TINY cockerel! I have been told before, but I cant find the answer; if the weights for adults are supposed to be 6.5/5.5, what is the leeway percentage? All of my girls are about the same size, but so far, all of my boys have been one extreme or the other!
Also, I truly hope nobody tries to change the standard to make larger Ameraucanas! I think the medium size is one of the appealing characteristics! They are petite and graceful.
For my wheaten/blue wheatens, hackle color is definitely an area I will be striving for improvement. What else keeps being a thorn among long term breeders??
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Clear hackles in the Wheaten color....irregardless of the breed...is an ongoing concern in the breeding pen. I will put up with a fault or two (if not major) on a male if he has clear hackles and decent type. Sometimes you go with the one with the least faults. Compensate with the hens if possible. I've dealt with the same problem in the Wheaten Marans for years. When I have a young cockerel show up with what appears clear hackle color he goes in the grow out pen until I can see what he's going to do and that means I keep him until he is at least 6 months old. Trying to breed to the standard is not for the faint of heart !
Change begins with the individual breeder......I had a very smart friend tell me many years ago when we were showing South African Boer Goats and basically had the same "preference" problems with them in one form or another that she could not breed a goat to suit every judge so she was just going to raise the best animal she could that best fit the standard, not worry about what anybody else did, and let the rest take care of itself. I have kept that in mind for a lot of years....I can't breed a bird to suit every judge out there SO I am going to breed the best bird I can that fits most closely the standard and let the chips fall where they may. I never have followed "trends" very well. Type first and foremost followed by color and size whether it be LF or Bantam.
Just for the record....I am against any change in the standard to "accomodate" these larger birds.
Please don't anybody take offense.....I know this is an Ameraucana site but I need to ask a question:
Birdcrazy....do you raise Black Bantam Wyandottes ? I've been looking for some good ones. If you do, we will have a private conversation about them. Thanks.
Everybody have a blessed day...
Peggy
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Great points, Peggy!
I learned, long ago, with the dogs (less so with the horses) not to breed for what is popular or what a group of judges want. I get a picture in my mind of the goal (SOP) and that is what I breed to. If judges don't like it, oh well, move on to the next one (judge, I mean, not breeder stock :) )
I've really set myself on this goal of clear hackles and being able to reproduce it consistently. I'm not there yet, but each year, I see improvement. I don't even keep a hen with speckles in her hackles anymore, because I know where that leads.
Over the last five years with the wheatens and blue wheatens, my stock is now consistently producing good tail sets, nice wide bodies, overall decent type...now if I can just get the black out. :)
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There's always a new (or old) challenge waiting for us !!! I have some hens that have more black speckles in the hackle than I want but their type is so good that I am using a really clear hackle male with the hopes of raising some good clean hackle pullets that can replace the hens.....one step at a time!
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I've seen pictures of your bantam wheaten cockbird and I don't see a drop of black in his hackles!
Is it not an issue in the bantams like it is in the LF?
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Please don't anybody take offense.....I know this is an Ameraucana site but I need to ask a question:
Birdcrazy....do you raise Black Bantam Wyandottes ? I've been looking for some good ones. If you do, we will have a private conversation about them. Thanks.
Everybody have a blessed day...
Peggy
Yes Peggy, I still raise Black/Blue/Splash Wyandotte Bantams
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I noticed the past few years that if you keep the lightest colored pullets, you get less black specks on them. I have my Wheatens looking much better than they did when i started. Out of all of the pullets i kept last year, not one of them have black specks on them. I did however find nice clean roosters to use to help my line out though.
Now i am trying to improve size on my Silvers. It is funny after reading all of the comments about Large fowl being to big but my Silver line needs help with size. I am waiting on some eggs that was sent to me to hatch and i am thinking they will help my size issue out.