Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Housing, Health & Hatching => Topic started by: dixieland on November 26, 2011, 11:39:33 PM
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I have read and heard so many different theories on this topic...Some say 60-70%, others say nothing above 30%.....
It seems like my Cochins will hatch out no matter what the lock down humidity is...... They usually average a 95-100% hatch....
I have just done my first Ameraucana hatch.....3 eggs that were all alive and viable went into lock down, only one hatched. At day 27, a necropsy (performed in my kitchen with my vet running the show) showed 2 fully formed chicks that never pipped. Humidity was maintained at about 60- 65% during lock down. Temperature was between 99.5 and 99.9.
Can someone shed some light on where I went wrong and what I can do to improve my hatch rate in the future??
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I don\'t even use a humidity indicator ( is that called a hygrometer?), but I don\'t believe Ameraucanas need much extra humidity. They are distantly related to Araucanas; I used to raise them too and they are the same way - a lot of them drown in the shell. Keep trying until you see what works, but I would say don\'t over do it on the humidity with Ameraucanas. More important, however, is breeder health and diet. If you have vigorous breeders who have been on a proper breeder diet for at least a month, their eggs should hatch very well. Inbreeding depression is another issue that can dramatically lower hatchability.
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Using a feed that has animal protein verses straight plant protein will also help in hatchability. We use a Hubbard game bird breeder pellet during hatching season.
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lock down humidity
I\'ve never heard of \"lock down\" associated with hatching, but think I\'ve figured out that means during the time from pipping to hatching from the context. I think Michael (not Mike) has had good results with dry hatches, but I haven\'t experimented with that at all.
Here are some of the numbers I shoot for.
In the egg storage room I try to keep the temperature around 55 to 60 degrees with as much humidity as possible...the goal is 75% on the hygrometer.
I try to keep the keep the temperature in the hatchery between 75 and 80 degrees with lots of humidity...50% or so. The room temp is much easier to regulate than the humidity. I use many water pans to increase the room humidity, but the outside weather affects it a lot.
In the setters I would like 57% humidity, but early in the hatching season it may only be 45 to 48%.
In the hatchers I aim for 75%, but there again I may settle for 66% when snow is on the ground.
Higher humidity in the rooms and incubators is much easier obtain after the spring rains come.
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Thank you so much!!!
@ Patty- We have our first delivery from Hubbard on Tuesday. I am excited to hear that someone else is using it with great results. The sales rep encouraged me to get the game bird breeder pellets, so I got 3 bags to try.......
These eggs were not from my own flock. They traveled home from Indy with me, so temperature variables might be part of the issue..
Thank you for your encouragement and support!!! What a blessing it is to be associated with such a great group of people.
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Good evening,
Jes, I incubate my eggs @ 99.5 degrees and as close to 50% RH that I can. On the 19th day I \"lock down\" place them in the hatcher, which is 99.5 degrees and as close to 75% RH as I can keep them. Once you lock down your eggs don\'t open the hatcher for any reason other to add water to the pan, if the RH drops.
My incubators and hatcher is in my basement and the Temp and RH is fairly stable.
My hatch rate now is 90%+.
What works for one person doesn’t necessarily work for anybody else. So try and see what works for you. The more you incubate the better your hatch rate will get as you learn more about what works and what don\'t.
Jess
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John is correct that I add little to no humidity to incubators for most of the year. I have a few eggs currently in the incubator and they are right on schedule for air sac development. I lost many, many dozens of eggs until I learned that where I am and our heating system does not require any extra humidity. We have enough here in Central Missouri. I aim for an air sack that is about 25% of the egg at day 18. I never add humidity after day 18. The following picture is helpful. It is at the bottom of the page at this link.
http://bevsmarans.com/hatching_eggs.htm
I also tend to incubate at about 100 degrees. I have found a rapidly developing embryo is a healthy one.
Forced air and lots of circulation also works best for me.
I qualify all of this by saying incubating is as much an art as it is a science and only the hens really know how to do it perfectly every time! :p
Also, as Patty suggested, you have to have a healthy egg before you start. For chickens that do not get to forage much a layer feed will just not produce viable embryos. If it is a feed issue you will see lots of burn-outs between days 14-18. Micro and macro nutrients should be considered for non-foraging birds. Everybody has their favorite, I like Kelp meal, but other things work well.
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I found out the hard way about breeder nutrition. My first year I got EEs to \"practice\" with. I had wonderful hatches. The following year I couldn\'t hatch Ameraucanas to save my life. The few that made it past day 18 were weak and more died than lived. I was beside myself - I couldn\'t imagine what I was doing wrong. I couldn\'t think of anything that was different from the first year. Then Michael mentioned embryo burnout and the light bulb came on. The EEs had been loose, but the more valuable breeder birds were penned. I added catfish pellets to up the protein and the difference was night & day! I think I\'ll look into the kelp meal, too.
As for humidity, I gave up and threw out my hydrometer. I monitor the air sac and I\'ve found I rarely need to add water before day 18. But I have had a problem with chicks drying out during the hatch, no matter how high the humidity, so I\'ve gone to using a still-air incubator as a hatcher and they seem to do better without the air blowing down on them.
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As an experiment, I brought 7 eggs home from Indianapolis to see if I could get them to hatch. They traveled over 12 hours to get there. They stayed in the vehicle for several days with weather dropping pretty low. They warmed back up on the 5 hour trip home. I set them the next day (Oct 31st) and hoped for the best. I like to keep the humidity around 45-50 for the first 18 days, (65-70 for the last 3 days) but twice I noticed the humidity had dropped to around 25-30 (my fault). On the morning of the 22nd day, a strong little blue Ameraucana had hatched from an egg that was dated 10-10. After a few more days, I broke the others open and found only yolks. Little “Indi” is now a week old and is thriving in my office with her/his pet moose and can hold her/his own with the family dog.
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Indi and Sophie.
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Awesome! We have a Buff that hatched from eggs that we brought back from Indy, so maybe he\'ll be Buff Indy----since you have Blue Indy!!!
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My lockdown is Weds, small cabinet 3 shelf bator, egg turners, temps are somewhere between 101.5 and 99 according to my 5 thermometers....Humidity has been 45-50%.
39 eggs set, now looks like only 23 have chicks. Weighed several and they didn\'t change weight AT All. These are the Wellie eggs as I don\'t have Ameraucanas of my own to hatch until next season. They are super dark and difficult to candle (so middle of the night went down and did the flashlight and got some kind of an idea of which ones might make it).
Now it sounds like FEED might be the issue? I use DUMOR Layer Crumbles, 16% and get in the \'all natural\' Kalambach Layer Crumbles 20% most of the time. So what else should I be feeding my hens? And how much a day? They are penned.
This is just to get really good hatching eggs......
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I am far from a pro compared to the veterans on this board but.... I have hatched a fair amount of eggs. I only use the styro incubators so far. Can\'t wait to justify buying one of those big daddy incubators!
Anyhooo.. I add nearly no water at all the first 18 days. I just let the incubator run. Those eggs need to lose weight. If I see the humidity at 10% for a day or so I will add a teaspoon of water. Then when it gets close to hatch day I put water in the channels (styro incubator) and add a jar of water with a sponge half immersed. This gets the humidity up to about 65%.
With this method I have never had a chick die in the shell. All eggs that start to develop will hatch. The only ones that do not hatch are eggs that never started to develop for one reason or another.
Shipped eggs of course have dismal hatch rates just because they never even start developing. Eggs from my own pens have near perfect hatch rates.
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These are my own fertile eggs. All had bull\'s eyes when I broke them open prior to saving eggs for hatching.
I added no water whatsoever and cabinet runs at 45%-50%. It isn\'t a big cabinet, about 24 inches high, 2 bulbs for heat and 2 fans for circulation. This is my second time trying to hatch from it. Last time I had 36 rockers and only 10-12 hatched.
I am a bit concerned that the eggs didn\'t \'dry down\' at all. They should have lost weight. But with electronic variables, it\'s just as possible that the digital scale is variable between weighings when we are talking grams. It just weighs to the nearest gram or 10th of an ounce depending on the switch. So just like the thermometers having a variance, I guess.
My next setting won\'t be until April. Unless I find some high quality Ameraucan hens to put with my Black, Splash, and Blue roos I\'m picking up in Indiana, I won\'t have any eggs to set this year of Ameraucana. I don\'t mind a short drive of 2 hours or so to pick up a nice quality hen while my chicks grow up......
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[If it is a feed issue you will see lots of burn-outs between days 14-18. Micro and macro nutrients should be considered for non-foraging birds. Everybody has their favorite, I like Kelp meal, but other things work well. ]
Michael, where do you purchase your kelp meal at? The sources that I have found online are all on the east coast and their shipping costs are pretty steep even for small amounts.
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I buy kelp meal at my local MFA! You may have to cross the boarder to get some. Your local cooperative should be able to get some in for you. You also might check the local bulk goods store, health food store, and or garden center and see if they can order it for you.
Sources of animal protein vary. The simplist is a dog or cat food made from meat! You have to check now days . . . many are not made from meat. Meal worms work good if you want to raise them. Small amounts of raw meat or butchering scraps work good . . . you have to be careful with these or you will have unwanted visitors. Last of all . . . free ranging or having some sort of movable pens.
I am experimenting with greens started in the greenhouse/coldframe in flats that are rotated into the pens every few days as a source of fresh greens and fun. If it works I will have some pictures and information in the next bulletin.
Michael
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I think I mentioned this before, but each year I grind my whitetail venison scraps, freeze it in baggies, and feed it to my chickens during the cold weather. They love it so much I have to wear gloves to protect my hands. Also, sources of kelp can be found on the internet by googling it. I did try it a couple of years but don\'t anymore. I believe it is a good source of trace minerals.
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Kelp is a powerhouse for fertility and virility in all species of animals... I have sworn by it in dog breeding program for years, as did my Mom and my Grandfather....
If you have your feed mixed custom, you can have them add it in...You can order it from Frontier Co-Op also. I think they have a retail store if you don\'t wish to do the whole Co-Op thing.....
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I\'ve been going by 2 lbs of crumbles per bird per week. I\'m thinking the Kalmbach (sp) brand should be good as John mentioned in a pricing post that was his feed. BUT don\'t know about \'extras\'.
The feed DID have pork in it, but now they have gone to \'all natural\' and for some reason that means no animal meat.
I have redworms (like earthworms, but the composter ones) I could feed working my manure windrows from the alpaca herd.
I would have to get in kelp meal..
I need to know what to \'shoot for\' on a per bird basis. How much per day or per week if feeding a mill blend already for incubating eggs.
I don\'t know if that is the problem this round of the \'bator\' but I did the water test for heartbeat for lockdown is tomorrow and out of 39 eggs set, I got 6 rockers. My friend set 24 of my eggs and has 19 going into lockdown.
I will see if I get any chicks!! It is so much cheaper setting your own eggs.....
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Are there two types of kelp meal. A local nursery has it, but I was told that it is used as fertilizer. Is there a food type of meal and a fertilizer type or is it all the same thing with different names?
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I am far from a pro compared to the veterans on this board but.... I have hatched a fair amount of eggs. I only use the styro incubators so far. Can\'t wait to justify buying one of those big daddy incubators!
Anyhooo.. I add nearly no water at all the first 18 days. I just let the incubator run. Those eggs need to lose weight. If I see the humidity at 10% for a day or so I will add a teaspoon of water. Then when it gets close to hatch day I put water in the channels (styro incubator) and add a jar of water with a sponge half immersed. This gets the humidity up to about 65%.
With this method I have never had a chick die in the shell. All eggs that start to develop will hatch. The only ones that do not hatch are eggs that never started to develop for one reason or another.
Shipped eggs of course have dismal hatch rates just because they never even start developing. Eggs from my own pens have near perfect hatch rates.
Well, this has been informative. I have the styrofoam incubators as well. I also seem to have too many die in the shell or drown. I usually just fill one channel during the first 18 days and if the temp/humidity reader is right, it shows about 48% to 50% humidity. And then I fill another channel for the last three days. I may try your method on what I\'m incubating now (I\'m on day 5 now) and see how that works for me. I don\'t think feed would be my issue because I use the 28% protein feed during breeding, although it is not animal based protein. I don\'t have many choices for feed around here. There are a few places but all seem to carry the same low protein, plant based stuff.
Anyway, I\'d like to know before trying your method whether you have a still air, or circulated air incubator. Mine are circulated air so I\'m wondering if I can still try your methods.
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My \'bator is from www.customincubator.com. It is a small desktop size incubator not as big as the sportmans. I think they should have made it a bit taller for the hatching drawer and 3 shelf units because I find that eggs set on the top rack are right under the light bulbs get too hot and the ones set right under the fans are too cool and don\'t hatch. I try to just set 20 eggs per shelf and in the middle area. The middle shelf also seemed to have the most \'rockers\'. So half my problems may just be this bator. It holds temps and humidity really well.
I cracked open the eggs today and many didn\'t develop and others were in the 11-18 day range. My feed is only 16-20% layer crumbles, so I will try upping it to a gamebird breeder formula.
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Well, this has been informative. I have the styrofoam incubators as well. I also seem to have too many die in the shell or drown. I usually just fill one channel during the first 18 days and if the temp/humidity reader is right, it shows about 48% to 50% humidity. And then I fill another channel for the last three days. I may try your method on what I\'m incubating now (I\'m on day 5 now) and see how that works for me. I don\'t think feed would be my issue because I use the 28% protein feed during breeding, although it is not animal based protein. I don\'t have many choices for feed around here. There are a few places but all seem to carry the same low protein, plant based stuff.
Anyway, I\'d like to know before trying your method whether you have a still air, or circulated air incubator. Mine are circulated air so I\'m wondering if I can still try your methods.
While I cannot take credit for the Dry Incubation method I am a fan so happy to share my experience. I know there are many methods and I have tried a few but this works best for me in my climate. An average humidity in the room I incubate is 45%.
I use a Hovabator 1588 circulated air with egg turners.
I admit when I saw that humidity gauge going lower and lower it was scary at first. I check in on it once a day. If it reads 10% or lower I add a teaspoon of water. Usually it is about 25% humidity.
I hatch in a little giant with a fan. I fill up all the channels and put a jar of water with a clean sponge half immersed in water at the 18th day. With all the plugs in the humidity stays pretty steady at 65%. I also use cut down paper egg cartons to hatch in. So the egg is pretty much always large end up. The chicks have no problem at all hatching out of the egg that way. Since I started incubating and hatching this way I have never had a chick die in the shell. Again I have not hatched near the number of chicks that the pros here have hatched but I have probably incubated 20 or 30 sets of eggs and this seems to work.
Maybe give it a try with eggs that are not precious and see how it works.
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My \'bator is from www.customincubator.com. It is a small desktop size incubator not as big as the sportmans. I think they should have made it a bit taller for the hatching drawer and 3 shelf units because I find that eggs set on the top rack are right under the light bulbs get too hot and the ones set right under the fans are too cool and don\'t hatch. I try to just set 20 eggs per shelf and in the middle area. The middle shelf also seemed to have the most \'rockers\'. So half my problems may just be this bator. It holds temps and humidity really well.
I cracked open the eggs today and many didn\'t develop and others were in the 11-18 day range. My feed is only 16-20% layer crumbles, so I will try upping it to a gamebird breeder formula.
Oh my gosh I love those incubators! I have been wanting more than my hovabator and thought of getting another but seems like so much money for just some styrofoam. I just cannot justify spending 700.00 plus shipping for one of those big guys yet.
Just last week I wrote on another message board \"I want an incubator that holds about 100 eggs for about 300.00. Wish come true! lol
Ok but you think the top shelf is too hot? Which model do you have exactly? How many eggs does your hold? There seems to be some variety of sizes and shapes.
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I have the same incubators, Hovabator and Little Giants, all circulated air. How in the world do you get a jar of water in the Little giant? I usually lay a sponge on the floor beneath the screen and use a straw through the hole to wet it down during the 3 day lockdown. I would think the only jar that could possible fit would be a baby food jar, but then that would be a small sponge!
That is very interesting that you don\'t lay the eggs down on the screen the last few days. I\'ve never heard of setting them on egg cartons before. So the hatched chicks don\'t manage to knock any of those eggs over during the hatch?
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I have the same incubators, Hovabator and Little Giants, all circulated air. How in the world do you get a jar of water in the Little giant? I usually lay a sponge on the floor beneath the screen and use a straw through the hole to wet it down during the 3 day lockdown. I would think the only jar that could possible fit would be a baby food jar, but then that would be a small sponge!
That is very interesting that you don\'t lay the eggs down on the screen the last few days. I\'ve never heard of setting them on egg cartons before. So the hatched chicks don\'t manage to knock any of those eggs over during the hatch?
Hmm... are there different models of the little Giant? There seems to be just enough room for a canning jar...like a jelly canning jar and a yellow kitchen sponge to fit right in the corner. The sponge ends up very close to that heating element. I make sure it is not touching but think the closeness of that heating element helps evaporate water into the air. Oh I also make sure there is enough room for a chick to go behind the jar and not get stuck.
The eggs stay put in the cartons. The chicks just bust the top off the shell and flop around. Sometimes they go back onto the carton and rest but never seem to get stuck long.
Here is pic. I did not have a clean sponge so was using a paper towel rolled up in my jar of water for this hatch. lol
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I\'ve never seen different sizes in Little Giants. I guess a jelly jar would fit. I just never thought of putting one on top of the screen. I would be afraid that the chicks might somehow be able to tip it over. Looks like you have some sort of paper towel or shelf saver covering you hatch on?
I like the egg carton idea. It looks like a good way of keeping the eggs secure and they don\'t get rolled around and yucked up by the other hatching chicks. I might try that next time.
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I\'ve never seen different sizes in Little Giants. I guess a jelly jar would fit. I just never thought of putting one on top of the screen. I would be afraid that the chicks might somehow be able to tip it over. Looks like you have some sort of paper towel or shelf saver covering you hatch on?
I like the egg carton idea. It looks like a good way of keeping the eggs secure and they don\'t get rolled around and yucked up by the other hatching chicks. I might try that next time.
Oh I see what you were thinking. Yeah just put it on top of the screen. They can\'t knock it over. Yes that is that white shelf gripper liner stuff. lol I can\'t think of the real name of it. lol
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My \'bator has 3 shelves and hatching drawer with 2 observation holes. The two fans are in the back top and the two red lightbulbs are in the front top. It does not come with turners, but the little giant turners fit and I just got 3 of them at the farm store. It did come with a thermometer mounted in the back. The cabinet door has a large viewing window, I guess I can go look and see. I am thinking mine was like $245 plus the 3 turners bought separately. I\'m using the \'Accurite\' brand thermometer/hygrometer, real cheap and seems to work ok. Haven\'t\' learned how to post photos here, so I\'ll go look at the site.
On the foam bators, I had to put long paper toweling around the inside edge to get my humidity up and since I give shots to my alpacas, I just used a clean syringe with a long needle and poked it through the styrofoam and squirted in the water so I never needed to open it. But they were all shipped eggs and I had terrible hatches.
This time, I\'m hoping my 6 rockers actually make it to hatch. Humidity is up and I am NOT opening it up!!
No way can I justify more $$ on bators when I can\'t hatch worth beans at the moment!!
3 turners x 42 eggs each = 126 eggs. Suggest making shelves/basket type to replace turners with for hatching as the drawer would probably only hatch 2 dozen eggs and give them room for the empty shells and the chicks! Also on mine, the drawer was kinda tight and I had to sand the opening so it slides quick and easy.
There was a hole out the back for the turner cords and I have a piece of plexiglas over it screwed down with the cords flattened and just about 1/8 inch of airspace. I figure the eggs and chicks still need SOME air supply and that is it!!
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I see they have added wire shelves, that is nicer as mine just had the side rails that I put the turners on and I had to make wire shelves for hatching.
I also see that they are only putting in 1 fan instead of 2 which should make the unit cheaper, but apparently materials musta gone up or shipping. The one I got now costs $275 and they just call it a 3 shelf with hatcher drawer. So on the web page, it would be like the oak one or several of the others at that price.
Mine had window sealing foam around the 3 doors (hatcher, cabinet, and water chamber) as well and that is nice to help seal it.
I had to replace my thermostat switch this year after washing it \'too well\' and getting the switch wet. I hosed it to rinse. Guess I will just spray and wipe next time!!
So I moved the 6 rockers down into the hatching drawer, upped the humidity and locked down. Hatching was supposed to be yesterday at 4 pm for 21 days. Nothing, no cheeping, no pips. All this time the digital was reading 101 on the 2nd shelf and I noticed since adding all the water it only reads 98. Of COURSE that was during lockdown when I was away, but it is a min/max. I will give them another day or so, but think they are goners.
Will check my next hatch/lockdown eggs/same bator, for Wednesday. If they are rockers, will try just taking them out of the turner and leaving them in the same location they set in and see if that works better.
Very discouraged. Lots of wasted electricity.....