Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Breeding => Topic started by: crystalcreek on January 19, 2012, 07:39:32 PM
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I have a chick in my growout pen that is black/lav split that has brown shafting. What causes this? Is it lack of melanizers on extended black? I remember seeing two chicks at hatch that seemed to have more reddish-brown colored down on the face than the normal black down seen in a lav split chick, I\'m pretty sure this is one of those grown out. I\'m also pretty confident that I can cull out this issue easily in the black chicks but what about the lavs? They are diluted so it would not be so obvious. Thanks in advance for any input.
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I believe lavender should be based on Extended black (E) at the E-locus and that the brown shafting and face color of the chick indicates it is probably birchen (E^R) based.
Also, I believe they should be Silver (S) at the S-locus rather than gold (s) and the brown/red colors indicate your chick is gold (s/s).
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Could someone please help me and define what is being referred to as \"shafting\"?
This subject came up in a previous thread (see \"Light vs. Dark Blue Wheaten\"). I posted what I thought shafting was & asked if I was mistaken. I never heard anything. Then I bumped the thread after checking my SOP but still didn\'t hear anything.
So is this \"shafting\" something different than what the SOP is talking about??
God Bless,
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What I am referring to is a black feather with a shiny brown center shaft. It is especially visible in the breast area.
I can post pics if necessary for clarification and thanks again for helping me understand this. Any input is appreciated.
The chick will be culled, but if there are issues with the parents I need to know that. Especially if my whole \"eliminate the slow feather gene\" plan hinges on one bird. Thanks
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This bird has shafting:
(http://assets.backyardchickens.com.s3.amazonaws.com/7/7c/403x363px-LL-7cdd81d1_007.jpeg)
It is very ingrained in to the silver line. When I started my project, I had black birds with shafting pop out in the first cross.
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So is this \"shafting\" something different than what the SOP is talking about??
No. Check out this link for more on the subject.
http://ameraucana.org/abcforum/index.php?a=topic&t=1550
What happens when you combine extended black and birchen lines? I believe I must have both.
The prime example is black cockerels from strains that are supposed to be E/E showing up with silver or gold in their hackles.
Without test mating it is difficult to completely separate the two. Many lines of black, blue and splash birds have both although some breeders try to establish their birds on one or the other.
You can base blacks on E or E^R and have good ones. If your flock (line or strain) of blacks is based on E be careful not to cross in a bird from a flock that is based on E^R.
I know that good lavenders can bred based on E. They may be able to be bred based on E^R, but it would be more difficult just as it is more difficult to produce solid black birds on E^R.
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Many lines of black, blue and splash birds have both
An individual bird, though, will be one or the other-correct-impossible to have both in the same bird?
If you breed extended to birchen, will that cross produce 50% offspring that are extended and
50% offspring that are birchen? Is it that simple?
Can you look at a day old chick and pluck out any with solid faces (no white/cream/silver down on the head) as a pretty reliable method of selecting which are birchen? Leaving the ones with color (by color I mean white on the face) as extended black. I understand there are melanizers in extended black and the amount of white can vary, so I know it probably would not be 100% accurate.
I just hate to lose my link to fast feather this generation if I don\'t have to. I have four fast feather lavender daughters that are looking pretty awesome at this point (7 weeks old yesterday), good size, fully feathered, clear color, good wing/tail set so far, tight pea combs.......
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impossible to have both in the same bird?
No. Since a chick will inherit one gene for a trait from each parent they have two, so a chick could be E/E, E^R/E^R or E/E^R if we are just considering these two possibilities at the E-locus.
If you breed extended to birchen,
Mating a bird that is pure for Extended (E/E) to one that that is pure for birchen (E^R/E^R) will produce chicks that are all 50/50...they will carry both...E/E^R.
With some black chicks it is very difficult to determine which are E/E and which are E^R/E^R by phenotype. If you can than you are way ahead of the game. Compare the black (E/E) and brown red (E^R/E^R) bantam and LF day-old chick photos on our ABC site. It may vary from one strain to another, but you\'ll note that my bantam day-old black and brown red chicks look identical. My LF day-old black chicks look like the bantams, but my LF brown red day-old chicks are almost completely black...very different looking than the black chicks.
Females hide gold/silver better than males and a pullet/hen that looks 100% black may be carrying birchen while a cockerel will generally get culled when he starts to show some gold/silver in his hackles as he gets close to maturity.
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Thank you, John!
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I had black birds with shafting pop out in the first cross.
Jean,
That may be because you used blacks that are birchen based. Those \"blacks with shafting\" were probably ER/e+ (ER is the same as E^R...just quicker to type). ER with melanizers will cover a lot, but with an E/e+ cross no shafting should appear. The F1 chicks from a cross using Extended (E/E) over wildtype (e+/e+) should be all black. Extended black should produce a solid black bird without the help of melanizers that are needed to produce solid black birds based on birchen.
This may not be gospel, but as I understand it...where \"E\" is Extended \"black\" without adding secondary pattern genes like lavender and recessive white...
E/ER, E/eb, E/e+ and E/EWh chicks will be black like E/E chicks.
E/ER, E/eb, E/e+ and E/EWh pullets/hens will be black.
E/ER, E/eb, E/e+ and E/EWh cockerels/cocks will be black as chicks, but develop silver or gold in their hackles as they mature.
Those with so-called lavender split birds that aren\'t pure black may have birds that aren\'t E/E.
Birchen (brown red) birds have gold (red) feathers and although the lavender gene dilutes black to lavender it dilutes red to isabel. If you have lavender males that are isabel where a brown red would be red, your bird is probably not E/E.
We know E/ER males \"leak\" colors thru their hackle and I believe once secondary genes are added, like lavender, they allow more leakage in other areas (just my guess).
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Birchen (brown red) birds have gold (red) feathers and although the lavender gene dilutes black to lavender it dilutes red to isabel. If you have lavender males that are isabel where a brown red would be red, your bird is probably not E/E.
And the light bulb just came on! Everyone was talking about brassiness in lavenders, but the males I got were practically 2-tone. I remember looking at the lavender wheaten project and thinking I had birds out here that were real close to that. I\'ve also had lots of blacks with leakage, and had those 2 sports pop up out of my black pen that were nearly silver. When I got my blacks from Wayne they were from a b/b/s pen, so they were likely birchen based. I\'ve gotten rid of all of the blacks except to cocks who, at 2 & 3 years old, still show no leakage. Any chance they might be extended black? And would it really matter if they were, since the lavenders are apparently birchen based?
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The coloration on the Lavender Wheaten project cockerals is much different than what comes out on the lavenders. I have seen lavenders leak a lemon color on their wings, hackles and saddle feathers, which I promptly cull. The LWs hackles are more like the color of a wheaten hens body...creamy.
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Any chance they might be extended black?
Yes, but they may be very good ER birds. My \"guess\" is if they have black shanks they are E/E, but if slate shanks they are ER/ER.
they were from a b/b/s pen, so they were likely birchen based.
What makes you think so? I would assume Extended black, but I don\'t know what his blacks are based on.
And would it really matter if they were, since the lavenders are apparently birchen based?
The lavenders that I developed are based on Extended black (E), but many people have crossed them with their blacks and some of those blacks are birchen (ER). Just as we have blacks bred up from two different e-locus genes, we may now have lavenders the same way. I believe that is causing the problems.
You (as in you all) can\'t buy top quality birds from two different breeders (well known and well respected), cross those birds and necessarily get birds like the parent stock you bought...unless you know the genetics behind both strains are the same.
Some varieties can be bred to the standard using two different e-locus (foundational or primary) genes. They can be show quality and have the same phenotype (looks) without having the same genotype. Bird are only judged by phenotype. That is why the best show quality birds can produce not so pretty progeny.
In the end you can breed your blacks, blues, lavenders, etc, based on the e-locus genes you want. The warning here is to be carefull that the birds you buy to breed with your birds are the same.
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leak a lemon color on their wings, hackles and saddle feathers,
Those are the ones that are lavener ER/ER without melanizers. Check it out on the Kip calculator...
http://kippenjungle.nl/kruising.html
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yes and they looked different from the LW. I think I\'ve had 2 lavs leak lemon in the past 3 years. Any blacks or lavs that have leakage I cull as EE\'s.
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John,
OK, looked on the ABC chick pictures and Classroom @ The-coop has the first thead with chick pictures. The pictures I see are black chicks with white/cream underparts from the chin down. The only problem is the one on the-coop shows a chick called penquin colored as an E and the color of an ER as very similar. Would you say the chicks that are pure black at day old should be culled immediately. As far as the ones black with white/cream under parts could possibly be E chicks but not necessarily.
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but not necessarily
Harry,
I\'m big on culling day-old chicks according to phenotype and anytime you can do it you are way ahead of the game. The problem is knowing for sure what to cull. As I said, some strains of E/E black and ER/ER black day-old chicks look so much alike and I can\'t tell the difference.
Proceed with caution!
FYI...just include a \"/\" between the the Es to indicate the pair of genes...E/E.
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Karen: I didn\'t say that quite right - I didn\'t mean to compare them to your LWs, I know those are something totally different and were a long time in the making. I meant that John\'s explanation of how lavender would affect gold explained the essentially 2-tone affect I was seeing.
John: That was only a guess, because he was using them to produce blue and, if I understand right, the birchen based birds produce a better blue. (I was hoping for blues when I bought them but, as luck would have it, only hatched blacks.) I believe their legs are black, but I\'ll have to confirm that in good light.
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So is this \"shafting\" something different than what the SOP is talking about??
No. Check out this link for more on the subject.
http://ameraucana.org/abcforum/index.php?a=topic&t=1550
Thanks John! It\'s nice to know I\'m on the same page with everyone else.
Now I don\'t wish to hijack the current thread and discussion on Lav\'s, so would one of you experts, that was involved with getting the W & BW\'s approved, email me and let me know what the reasoning was behind wanting shafting in the tails of the males?
I can see \"allowing\" for it but actually desiring it? I\'ve gotten the tails on my males to finally be all blue without any red/orange in them. Now I\'m gonna have to go check to see if I have any shafting at all. It\'s just one of those things I hadn\'t paid any attention to as that part of the SOP didn\'t stick out in my head.
Again, just email me and thanks for letting me stray slightly of course with this post.
God Bless,
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Here is the chick. I\'m holding him down on the bedding by two feet so I can photograph the specific area is why he looks goofy.
It is a cockerel, if that makes any difference.
I\'m not sure, but I\'m guessing a lavender male of this would have \"lemon\" shafts? Not something I think I want to fight with.... I have four lav females, sisters to this chick, no evidence of shafting. The females are very nice and I was actually pretty excited about them until today.