Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Housing, Health & Hatching => Topic started by: Sharon Yorks on March 10, 2012, 09:29:11 AM
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Have any of you heard of embryo vaccinations and/or practice it? Below is an interesting article on the topic. I don\'t really understand it all, but it seems interesting.
It would be interesting to hear the method and procedure of how some of you vaccinate for Mareks. I am planning to vaccinate everything I hatch, starting with my hatch that is due next Thursday. I just want to make sure I do it correctly. I was sent 1/2 ml (29 gauge) needles and syringes with my vaccine. I\'m a little confused on the amount to give the chicks. 0.2 ml, right?
ARTICLE:
Marek\'s disease virus (MDV) vaccines of serotypes 1 and 2 administered in 18-day-old embryonated eggs induced better protection against post-hatch challenge at 3 days with virulent MDV than vaccines given at hatch. Embryonal vaccination with a polyvalent vaccine containing equal quantities of serotypes 1 and 2 of MDV and serotype 3 virus (turkey herpesvirus, HVT) was also significantly more effective than post-hatch vaccination. These and earlier results indicate that protective efficacy of single or combined Marek\'s disease vaccine serotypes against post-hatch challenge at 3 days can be substantially improved if the vaccines are injected into 18-day embryos rather than at hatch. Injection of vaccines of serotypes 1 or 2 into embryonated eggs or hatched chicks did not cause detectable gross or microscopic lesions in chickens. Vaccine viruses of serotypes 1 and 2 could be isolated from spleen cells of chickens 1 week post-vaccination, and the titer of recoverable viruses was higher in chickens that received the vaccines at the 18th day of embryonation than in chickens vaccinated at hatch. Although embryo vaccination with HVT usually provided better protection than post-hatch vaccination against early post-hatch challenge with variant pathotypes of MDV, the protection was poor regardless of vaccination protocol. If challenge with variant pathotypes of MDV was delayed until embryonally or post-hatch HVT-vaccinated chickens were 21 days of age, protection of chickens by HVT was not enhanced. Thus, resistance induced by embryonal vaccination with HVT was qualitatively similar to that induced by post-hatch vaccination with this virus.
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I\'m pretty sure you have to have a hatchery type set up to do embryo vaccinations; it is a mechanical process.
The needles you received to vaccinate are too narrow, it will shred the virus as it is pushed out of the needle and you will be wasting your vaccine.
I believe the proper needle recommended by the manufacturer is:
12. For vaccination, an automatic syringe with 22- to 20-gauge needles, 3/8-inch to 1/2-inch in length, is recommended. Make certain that all equipment is sterilized and change needles frequently.
13. Inject each chick subcutaneously with 0.2 mL (two-tenths of a milliliter) of the vaccine.
14. Use all the vaccine from 1 vial within 1 hour after rehydrating. Do not save any vaccine that has been rehydrated. Burn vaccine containers and all unused contents.
I use a 1 ml, 25 gauge insulin needle that I buy at walmart in a big box. It is 5/8 of an inch long. You don\'t want anything longer as you will poke through the skin alot with a longer needle. This needle has hash marks on the side and is labeled 1-10 and each 2 units is .02 mls.
I called one of the Veterinarians at Fort Dodge to verify if the needle I was using was ok and they said it was the smallest they would recommend.
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embryo vaccinations and/or practice it?
I\'ve only heard of it used by large commercial hatcheries.
http://ameraucana.org/abcforum/index.php?a=topic&t=1547
http://ameraucana.org/abcforum/index.php?a=topic&t=1563
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I\'ve been intrigued by the idea as well, but I\'ve never heard of it being done outside of a commercial setting. It would be nice to vaccinate hen-hatched eggs.
The other extreme on needle size: I had my vaccine mixed last night when I realized was out of 20 gauge needles, and I had to use an 18. It can be done, but I think I\'m better inoculated than the birds... :stare:
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I use a 22 gauge x 1/2 inch needle on day old chicks. I buy these at my local Orscheln store. Yes you are correct for the .2 ml dosage per chick.
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This is such a great forum! Thanks for all the advice. I called my local Walmart and they have 21 gauge 1 1/2 inch needles with 3ml syringes. Will that work? It sounds like the needle is a little on the long side, but if a person (me) is careful about just barely sticking it under the skin, do you think it\'ll work okay, or should I keep looking? My friend, Teresa, is going to hold the chick and be the alcohol dabber.
Also, do you rub the spot after injection or just leave it alone and let the bubble absorb on its own?
Sharon
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1 1/2 inch needles
I still suggest the 1/2\" long ones.
http://www.cutlersupply.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3_76&products_id=424
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My syringes and needles come free with the vaccine.
1st State Vet Supply, Dr Peter Brown. They work great.
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Using a 1-1/2 needle you could get by if you are careful to not let it protrude through and go out the other side. It will sure slow down the process and with open time of about 1 hr after mixing the vacine you won\'t get as many chicks done. I have used \"1 needles and even with them you have to slow down and be careful- 1/2 inch works much better. We usually gather the chicks in 30 gal rubber storage tubs all lined up. My daughter is the catcher and holder. I swab and vacinate. When we first started we could only do about 50-60 chicks an hour. But with practice our best has been about 174 an hour. That\'s with about 70% bantams which are much harder than LF. That\'s smoking! You do not have to rub the bubble on the chicks neck. Just watch them and keep them warm. I think the alcohol swab cooling them down is harder on them than the vacine. I have never had a chick have adverse reactions to the vacine. All in all, it\'s probably harder on my daughter and me trying to beat the clock and use as much vacine before time runs out!
Good Luck- It\'s not as complicated as it sounds. You\'ll be a pro in no time!
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I have never used an alcohol swap and have never lost a chick due to infection from vaccination. What would be the point? If the chicks are clean and the needle is kept clean I would have to conclude it is totally unnecessary.
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One advantage to using an alcahol swab is that when you swab the neck area the fuzz almost disappears and you have a clearer view of the skin below. I have done as Mike said and not swabed the area and have not had any bad effects. I do make sure the needle is swabed with alcahol between injections.
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Have any of you heard of embryo vaccinations
This type of vaccination is usually done in a laboratory setting where you can maintain a sterile environment. In order to inject the embryo, you have penetrate the shell. This introduces the possibility of contamination by various microbial organisms. You can\'t just push a needle through the shell either. You have to drill a very small hole in the shell, do your injection, then seal the hole back up with some kind of glue like \'gluco-cement\' or superglue.
I don\'t think this type of procedure would be much of a time saver and the risk of contamination of the embryo would mean you would have to see big rewards to make it pay off.
The chick vaccination seems like a much simpler and effective process.
Curtis
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Do they actually inject the embryo or just the fluid?
I started out using an alcohol pad to wipe the needle between chicks, but have to admit I\'ve gotten lazy about doing it. I haven\'t had any infections/reactions from vaccines. Although I did have a chick\'s foot turn black a few days after toe punching it. Anyone had that happen?
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So (hypothetically) what happens if your chicks take more than a day to hatch? Let\'s say they start hatching at 10:00am and you see pipping in a few eggs the next morning? I guess my question is, how long can you wait to vaccinate them? I\'m assuming you would want all of them up on their feet and dried off, right? Mine are due to hatch this Thursday. I\'m hoping they all hatch during that first day.
Okay, so put chicks in a separate tub. Alcohol soaked cotton balls or pads next to tub (use sparingly to not chill chick) Mix the solution, shake gently to mix, then draw out an ml or so. Have friend grab the chick I like the least, then dab the back of the neck just enough to lay down the hair so I can see any blood vessels and have friend hold the chick\'s head down. Pinch up a little bit of skin and barely stick needle (facing sideways) under the skin, then only administer .2ml, then set chick under heat light, then pray I did it right...wait! I better pray before I start. Can you tell I\'m a little nervous about this? Give me a horse\'s rump or a puppy and I\'m fine, but a baby chick? They\'re so little! Oh, yeah. Clean off reading glasses before starting. WHAT AM I MISSING?
Is there any incubation period after vaccinating them that the live virus can transfer off of them to anything else...I\'m thinking more on my close since the chicks will be in my office for several weeks.
Sharon
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You do not have to vacinate at day old. I usually wait until the incubator is done hatching for that batch. Yes that means the oldest chicks might be close to 2-3 days old (usually only a very few hatch early-usually 90% on due hatch day-and a few straglers the next day). It takes at least 10 days for chicks to build up an immunity after vacination, so they should not be exposed to older birds or housing that might be contaminated with the virus. I usually keep chicks isolated for 3-4 weeks as a precaution.
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Here is a link to a video showing vaccination of chicks at a large commercial operation. It\'s good information, just faster than me and my syringe.
http://youtu.be/oDex4fitTWY
Also, here is a link to an article on the subject by Peter Brown.
http://www.firststatevetsupply.com/content/view/17/37/
FYI...Peter had a heart attach back on February 6th. It slowed him up slightly and and said he was \"under Doctors Orders to slow down and do less\" in an email later that week. I haven\'t heard anything since and assume he is doing well.
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I keep my chicks in a shoebox lined with textured paper toweling until they are vaccinated, typically the day after they are hatched. Don\'t use anything slick like newspaper to prevent spraddled legs. The shoebox is placed on top of the incubator, which is warm, and the heat radiating through is sufficient to keep the chicks comfortable until it is time to vaccinate. I punch a small hole or two in the box for fresh air. Afterward, they go back into a clean shoebox and back on top of the incubator until the brooder is warmed and ready for them. To prevent pasting, I start the chicks on raw oatmeal flakes for the first two days, then gradually change them over to medicated chick starter. I have also learned to not use cold water at first, as it is too much of a shock to their little metabolisms. Using lukewarm water seems to be much healthier for them. This helps especially the more delicate bantams.
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Here is a pretty good down to earth site for explaining mareks vacination for the small flock raiser. http://poultryone.com/articles/mareks.html
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To prevent pasting, I start the chicks on raw oatmeal flakes for the first two days, then gradually change them over to medicated chick starter.
This is interesting. Are you talking about the Quaker 1 minute oatmeal you buy in a large round container? I knew about the warm water, just never heard about the oatmeal.
I read the article by Peter Brown. That was very informative and helpful. I didn\'t know he had had a heart attack. I sometime catch him on Mondays on the Chicken Whisperer program, but have missed it lately. Let us know if you hear an update.
I watched the YouTube video. Made me cringe at how those babies are handled. I\'m also hearing that the vaccine lasts for up to 2 hours. I can see how it\'s best to keep the 1 hour plan in mind, but at least I\'ll have a little breathing room if the first few times goes a little slower than planned. And it\'s also good to know the chicks can be vaccinated later than a day old if they don\'t all hatch at once. It seems that my splash pen is a very aggressive hatcher. They are always the first ones out, and last month when my thermometer got messed up and my bator was too high, the splash hatched out (early) anyway. None of the others made it. And another person got eggs from me and didn\'t know a still air incubator was supposed to be set at 102 instead of 99.5 (I didn\'t know either) 4 splash made it out. I\'m thinking I have a pretty special cockerel, huh? Thanks, Paul!
Okay. I think I\'m ready. Bring on the chicks!
Sharon
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Sharon wrote, \"This is interesting. Are you talking about the Quaker 1 minute oatmeal you buy in a large round container? I knew about the warm water, just never heard about the oatmeal.\"
Yes, I think most any kind of uncooked oatmeal flakes would work. It is not a 100% preventative, but I have noticed that it helps. Apparently the chick starter is just a little too rich at first for some strains, especially bantams. I use a 20% protein medicated starter, and once they get going on it, they do fine.
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To prevent pasting, I start the chicks on raw oatmeal flakes for the first two days, then gradually change them over to medicated chick starter.
This is interesting. Are you talking about the Quaker 1 minute oatmeal you buy in a large round container? I knew about the warm water, just never heard about the oatmeal.
I read the article by Peter Brown. That was very informative and helpful. I didn\'t know he had had a heart attack. I sometime catch him on Mondays on the Chicken Whisperer program, but have missed it lately. Let us know if you hear an update.
I watched the YouTube video. Made me cringe at how those babies are handled. I\'m also hearing that the vaccine lasts for up to 2 hours. I can see how it\'s best to keep the 1 hour plan in mind, but at least I\'ll have a little breathing room if the first few times goes a little slower than planned. And it\'s also good to know the chicks can be vaccinated later than a day old if they don\'t all hatch at once. It seems that my splash pen is a very aggressive hatcher. They are always the first ones out, and last month when my thermometer got messed up and my bator was too high, the splash hatched out (early) anyway. None of the others made it. And another person got eggs from me and didn\'t know a still air incubator was supposed to be set at 102 instead of 99.5 (I didn\'t know either) 4 splash made it out. I\'m thinking I have a pretty special cockerel, huh? Thanks, Paul!
Okay. I think I\'m ready. Bring on the chicks!
Sharon
The Chicken Whisperer? :stare:
I\'m all into the Dog Whisperer and would love to hear the Chicken Whisperer. What is this, a local tv show or something? Youtube? Never seen or heard of it before.
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Here is a link to find out more about the chicken whisperer:
http://www.chickenwhisperer.net/
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The chicks started hatching at 8:00pm on Wednesday. The first one wanted out so bad, I heard it chirping in the shell and within 10 minutes from the time it first pipped, it was out. 3 came out that night, and the next morning, I noticed 9 more had started to pip a little. The plastic thermometer that I have lays across the top of the eggs and is about 5 inches wide. It\'s very large! I have a 1583 Hovabator, and with 25 eggs in there, there wasn\'t much room for the thermometer once the eggs start to hatch.
The temperature on the incubator had been holding a steady 99.5 so I decided to take the 3 active chicks and thermometer out. After several hours, I noticed that none of the pipped eggs had gone any farther than before. I don\'t know what made me do it, but I put the thermometer back in. The temperature had shot to 103 and I don\'t know how long it had been that high. The humidity was still holding a good 60-65. I cracked the lid to let some of the heat out, then grabbed two of the pipped eggs and peeled back a little of the shell to see if the chick was still alive. They both were, so I put them back and left them alone. The temp got back to normal and the humidity stayed right. Later that evening, still nothing. This is where I need some education and info.
Right or wrong, where the eggs had pipped, I peeled back a tiny whole so they could breath, then took my fingernail and made a long crack so it would be easier for them to push the end off. I know that helping them out is a no-no, but the membrane was tougher than a rubber band around them and I\'m not sure why. I don\'t see how they could have gotten out on their own.
What made that membrane get real tough? Was it the high temperature? Something in my feeding program? Hens that are eating too much calcium?
After helping them a little with the shell, I now have 17 chicks running around in the brooder and one more that had pipped overnight and I helped get out this morning. I took one of the remaining non-pipped eggs and poked a hole in the air sack. The membrane had dried and shrunk-wrapped tightly around the chick. I dampened it lightly with warm water, then peeled the shell away from what looked like a dead chick. Once I got the top off and it\'s head free, it started breathing a little. I laid it back in the incubator with the bottom still on. It hasn\'t moved since. I\'m pretty sure it isn\'t alive now. I opened the remaining eggs and found the same thing in 3 more. They were full grown chicks that the membrane had shrunk around and dried. The humidity had never dropped below 60 the whole time, so I\'m not sure why it was dried out. I would have never attempted to interfere with the hatch had it not been for the temperature shooting up and probably being that high for over an hour or two.
As a result, I know have 18 out of 25 chicks, and out of the remaining 7 eggs, there were 4 full grown chicks, 2 that hadn\'t absorbed all of the yolk, and one I didn\'t want to open because when I candled it, it looked like fluid floating around.
Last question, if my last chick just hatched this morning, can I vaccinate it for Mareks at around 1:00pm - 2:00pm today?
Sharon
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\"Last question, if my last chick just hatched this morning, can I vaccinate it for Mareks at around 1:00pm - 2:00pm today? \"
Sure, what have you got to lose? But I would recommend keeping them confined and exposed as little as possible to the environment before vaccinating.
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I hatch them out in my home office and then put them under a red heat lamp which is also in my office. They won\'t go outside for a long time. The only way they could be exposed to anything is what I may bring in on my clothes from my other birds...but even then, I try to wear something over my clothes and gloves, then take that off in my mud room and wash up before I go into my office. I was just afraid of that last chick being too young since it was just hatched this morning.
Sharon
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It\'s been over 3 hours since we vaccinated the peeps and all are still alive and alert enough to peck at each others leg bands. Don\'t know if all of the chicks got the correct amount (needle went clear through a couple of times and some vaccine backed out the hole when I pulled the 21g needle out) but I\'m happy with our first attempt at this. Took less than 30 minutes to vaccinate all 18 chicks. I\'m sure we\'ll get better and more accurate with the needle the more we do it. They love the oatmeal!
I had to move the heat light out of the way to take the picture. They all looked red.
Sharon
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Congratulations! It sounds like the chicks and you both made it through the ordeal in great shape. Now, was it as bad as you had anticipated? Now that you have went through round 1, you will know what to expect and it will go much smoother next time. I expect you will be able to do that many chicks in less than half that time!
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Now, was it as bad as you had anticipated?
Ah. Twern\'t nothin\' ;)