Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Housing, Health & Hatching => Topic started by: Schroeder on December 29, 2012, 07:29:54 PM
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I've had 15 hours of light in my hens/pullets coop for a couple of months. I'm getting about 9 eggs a week from my 3 Wheaten hens, and just put 18 eggs in the incubator a few days ago. I have a bachelor pad with 5 cocks/cockerels of different breeds and varieties in which there is no added light. I'd been taking a BW cockerel to the hens for 24 hour periods every several days.
When I broke open the eggs to look for fertility, I couldn't see the "bullseye" but thought maybe I just didn't know what I was looking for, so I went ahead and incubated 18 anyway. Well, I just read in another forum that it is just as important to have the cock exposed to 15 hours of light to assure fertility. I guess I will know in a few more days when I candle, but I don't know if I will be able to tell immediately. I had been so excited about the prospect of October show ready birds, but now my enthusiasm has been deflated.
How important do you think artificial light is on the males? I'm reluctant to start with artificial light in the bachelor coop because the added hours of light (inside) might increase the potential for fighting. If you recommend this is critical, would it be bad to thrust the cockerel into 15 hours of light without slowly acclimating him to the additional light?
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I have more questions and opinions, rather than answers. If you are putting a male in with the hens for 24 hour periods every several days, isn't he getting switched back and forth from 15 hours of light to just a little light every several days? I'm not sure what time of day you are taking him in and out, but I would think that would be harder on him, than just switching him over and leaving him. And I am not real sure about the light making a rooster fertile as much as his desire would be increased (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Is there any particular reason why you don't want to leave him in with them? How old are your hens? If they are older and the male is young, maybe they are just crabby old ladies telling him no...I only say that because I have one that is doing that right now. Have you actually seen him covering any of the hens?
In November, I decided to put extra lights on two of my pens so I placed a timer that comes on at 3:30am, then goes off at 4:30pm, which still gives them a little bit of light to get to their perches so the lights out doesn't leave them in pitch dark. I don't remember how much light they were getting at the time in November, and maybe it would have been better to slowly introduce them to extra light, but I just turned it on. Within a couple of weeks, the eggs increased dramatically and I am expecting New Year's Day chicks. If my memory serves me correctly, it DID take the males a week or so to get busy. The younger male was just figuring it out with the pullets and the older male seemed to have to reintroduce himself to the hens.
Don't know if this helps.
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Sharon: Thanks for always giving your comments in this forum.
No, I have never actually seen the cockerel covering the hens, but I haven't observed for long periods of time. My routine has been to put him on the roost with the hens after dark, and then taking him back to the bachelor pad the next night. I hadn't thought about confusing him with the occasional 15 hour days.
I hadn't wanted to leave him in the pen with the hens full time, as I thought the ratio of 1 to 3 would be to strenuous on the hens. In retrospect, maybe I should have put him, the Wheatens and a couple of other brown layers (not for hatching) in the area which could comfortably handle 7 to 8 birds.
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I don't know that 1 male and 3 hens is too much unless he is very young and aggressive towards them. One of the problems with putting in 7-8 hens would be if he picks a few favorites and none happen to be the hens you're wanting to hatch from. If it were me, I'd put him in with the 3 hens and try to spend a little time in the coop, watching to see how he acts towards them. If he IS pretty active, you should be able to see that pretty soon. And I would watch him over a few days. I had a couple of cockerels who acted like a bull in a china shop when I first put them in with hens, but then, not long after they were walking around asking permission and getting turned down often.
Have you given up on trying to hatch now? Don't get discouraged. You still have plenty of time. I think if you put the male in now with the 3 hens, and give them a few days before you start collecting (or at least see him cover them a couple of times), you can still hatch out some late Jan./early Feb. chicks. I don't know how long your current eggs have been in the incubator, but if you candle at 6-7 days, you should be able to see something.
I really think your problem was taking the male in and out too often. And I only have my light on for 13 hours. I don't know if 15 is necessary. I think most say 14.
Let me know what you get when you candle. You've got me curious now :-)
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Thanks Sharon. I'm taking your advice and I'll let you know.
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And I only have my light on for 13 hours. I don't know if 15 is necessary. I think most say 14.
I go with 16 hours of light on both males and females, less may do just about as well but I've read that some commercial laying operations use 18 hours of light to get the most eggs.
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I go with 16 hours of light on both males and females, less may do just about as well but I've read that some commercial laying operations use 18 hours of light to get the most eggs.
I'm just curious, John. Have you ever experimented with less light to see what would happen? I just now checked around the Internet and see that most do say 14-16 hours, but is that for "maximum" egg production? And is there any harmful results as to having them on long hours for long periods of time? I'm sure commercial people aren't too concerned with adverse side effects and are probably swapping their layers out all the time. You guys have been doing this for much longer than I have so I respect your experience and advice tremendously.
I guess my real question is, if I have my birds on 13 hours of light now and am getting 6-9 eggs from 11 hens/pullets every day, would more light give them an even higher egg production, or is it that the addition light has switched their egg making switch "on" so the 1-3 hour variance doesn't really matter. I don't know why my mind wonders about such things. It just does :)
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0 for 18. Live and learn! :'(
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Sorry!
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0 for 18. Live and learn! :'(
Sorry to hear that. Did you put the rooster back in with the hens? Are you going to try again soon?
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I'm just curious, John. Have you ever experimented with less light to see what would happen? I just now checked around the Internet and see that most do say 14-16 hours, but is that for "maximum" egg production? And is there any harmful results as to having them on long hours for long periods of time? I'm sure commercial people aren't too concerned with adverse side effects and are probably swapping their layers out all the time. You guys have been doing this for much longer than I have so I respect your experience and advice tremendously.
I guess my real question is, if I have my birds on 13 hours of light now and am getting 6-9 eggs from 11 hens/pullets every day, would more light give them an even higher egg production, or is it that the addition light has switched their egg making switch "on" so the 1-3 hour variance doesn't really matter. I don't know why my mind wonders about such things. It just does
I think I started out with 12 hours of light years ago when I first started using artificial light to stimulate egg production. I still start each year with 12 hours/day and keep increasing it until I'm at 16 hours/per day.
I do disagree with the comment about commercial people and adverse side effects. When egg production is someones livelihood and not just a hobby I have to assume they want what is "optimal". Wild birds like turkeys lay in the spring when there is about 12 to 15 hours of daylight, so your 13 hours should be just fine in my opinion.
A hen has a limited number of eggs that she will lay in her lifetime. Some breeds lay more per day, on average, than others. Since light stimulates egg production we are just using it to our advantage to get the most eggs per hen during hatching time so we can hatch the most chicks.
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When I commented about commercial people, I was referring to the people who furnish eggs for the grocery stores for everyone to eat. I was not referring to anyone who breeds, sells, and raises chickens. I, myself, am doing somewhat the same as what you are referring to...trying to get as many eggs up front. I am then selecting the best of all of my hatches, then selling almost everything else. It allows me to get more eggs, yet I'm still selling young hens that the next person can enjoy many more eggs from. I'm just trying to do it as close to natural as possible so as to not stress them. I didn't mean any disrespect, if that's the way it came across. I was just talking about big egg farms selling to grocery stores, and even then, just assuming their main concern was strictly in production. Good lesson in not being so eager to through my thoughts and opinions about others out there. :-X
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Sharon,
I didn't think you meant many disrespect and I don't either, I just think that commercial egg operations would be very concerned about adverse side effects. When I look at how little the price of eggs has gone up over the decades I know they have to run extremely cost effective operations. :)
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0 for 18. Live and learn! :'(
Sorry to hear that. Did you put the rooster back in with the hens? Are you going to try again soon?
I put the 8 mo cockerel in with the 3 hens and observed for about 30 minutes. Some displays of authority by him but no action. I'll keep them together now. Problem is, after a week or more I'm afraid he'll not be accepted back into the bachelor pad with 1 larger Black A and 3 much larger Orpingtons.
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Problem is, after a week or more I'm afraid he'll not be accepted back into the bachelor pad with 1 larger Black A and 3 much larger Orpington.
I'll bet you are right on target!
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The "game bird" folks add lots of extra treats to help their males for breeding, extra hormone tablets, cod liver oil and cock booster feeds supposedly to help them stay extra active for breeding. The old folks (older than me) will tell you to add red pepper to the feed, add apple vinegar or oak leaf tannins to the water to help the males. All this together and a little time will usually make things happen. But I've often thought that the time was more important, and with time practice. So if you can keep the extra males in with hens (even if just layer hens) it will keep them in practice. They will fight more but they will be ready when you want them to visit the breeding pens.
I once had a LF pullet who had sores on her back from the males feet/spurs. I kept her separate and allowed her visits for a couple of hours per week. They were already acquainted so I hatched her eggs most of the season. You can actually use your show birds as breeders with a similar arrangement.
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As it turns out, 4 of the 18 were fertile, which I confirmed via candling at 8 days. Three of the four hatched. I gasped a bit when I first saw them, not remembering their legs start out yellow. I have another 18 eggs ready to go in the bator tomorrow (I need a bigger incubator. My Brinsea can only handle 18 at a time, and my Little Giant is very unreliable.)
The cockerel has been with the 3 hens 24/7 for a couple of weeks now. I've observed him regularly taking care of business, so I am confident of fertility this time around.
(For those of you who haven't yet fired up your incubators, I apologize for the picture. Don't hurt yourself running to get yours out of the closet!) ;)
Duane
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Well, that is a start Duane. I candled the eggs I set on January 1st a second time yesterday. Taking into account both candlings, the Ameraucanas were 100% fertile, and the Chanteclers 87.5% fertile. For the second batch set January 8th and candled one time, the Ameraucana eggs are at 72.2% fertile and the Chanteclers 94.4%. The decline in Ameraucana fertility is attributable to one bantam pullet that started laying - I don't think she and the rooster like each other very well, as none of her eggs were good. I plan to set another 90-or-so eggs tonight. My breeders get nothing but game bird breeder pellets and free choice grit and oyster shell. They also get a vitamin & electrolyte supplement in their drinking water about three times per week. When the weather warms up the latter will be discontinued. Temp inside the coop gets below freezing sometimes, so I collect eggs fairly often.
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I am soooooooooo jealous!!
I've had 9 W & BW hens in a pen for months and I've not gotten a single egg from them yet. I've got two gals in the upper coop with a bunch of other birds (I hadn't planned on breeding these two) and they are giving me about 3 eggs a piece per week. I've got a 75 watt bulb shining on the pen from about 20-25 feet away and am guessing it's not giving the hens enough light. So I'll try to figure something out there because I am REALLY wanting to get the incubator going!
On the subject of supplemental light, I've often read that 14 hours is what's needed as well. I have my lights come on about 0200-0300 in the morning. I use those cheap $6 Timers from Wal-Mart and the lights go off about 0800 or so. So I keep my birds on 15 hours of light.
Having said that, before I bought the timers, the lights were on 24/7. I personally don't believe it hurts the birds at all. Ever seen a bird in the middle of summer on the roost or out in the yard with its head tucked under its wing? When they want to nap, they will.
So anyways, how many others with W & BW's have noticed that their birds don't produce will well? Four to six months without any eggs is just not gonna cut it with me. I know I had some productivity problems in the past and I thought it was getting better but this is ridiculous. I haven't gotten an egg from these gals since they started to molt. If it's not the light issue, I don't know what I'm gonna do.
God Bless,
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If they are getting enough light, all I can suggest is make sure they are getting a proper, balanced laying ration, make sure they are free of internal and external parasites, and make sure they have a clean pen. Fresh shavings do make a difference. If after doing all this you still don't get eggs, maybe try switching them to a different clean pen. Maybe the one where you are now getting eggs? I'm not sure that will make a difference, but you never know.
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I have LF Silvers, both hens and pullets, in the same coop as my Wheatens, separated only by chicken wire. They have the same of everything - light, temperature, feed, etc., yet my Wheatens are laying 3 to 4 eggs a week and the Silvers have not laid anything since September. The only difference I can think of is that the Silvers are all together in a mixed flock, and the Wheatens have their own, more spacious area (as in square foot per bird.)
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I have noticed that some varieties (and it probably varies by strain) lay earlier than others. My WBS always started about a month earlier than the other varieties. My buffs are usually the last, but I have one hen that lays very early. In contrast, my NHR layers lay straight through the shortest days, even w/o supplemental light.
I have also noticed that it takes a while longer to get fertile eggs, perhaps because the cocks need more light? Right now I have 12 out of 15 hens laying but only one has produced fertile eggs, 1 of 2 covered by Old Man. The others are covered by first year males, which may have something to do with it, but, since hens seem to vary in the amount of light they need, wonder if it's the same for males, just not as obvious since you don't have something as obvious as an egg to go by?
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Hope this does not bore anyone, but I was pleased to have a good hatch on my brown red bantams and large fowl yesterday. Out of five bantam eggs set (all from one pullet), all were fertile and five hatched. Of six LF (one hen, one pullet) eggs set, all were fertile and five hatched. It isn't much, but we are off to a good start on the hatching season. I'll have larger hatches coming off for the next three Tuesdays, but I'm not setting eggs again for at least two weeks. If anyone is close enough to pick them up, I'll be happy to share eggs, but I don't ship them. On a sour note, my water hydrant inside the coop is froze up, so I'll be toting water until we get a good thaw. The thermometer here had not risen above zero for the last two days, and we had twenty below night before last. This morning it's a little better, but snowing again.
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Mike, The offer on the eggs is tempting, but your weather report has me wanting to go south not north. My hydrants froze too and I'm carrying water also. At least we are not -20 just down to about zero at the coldest. It is to be a heat wave here today about 30 then back down for the next few days. Hang in there and throw another log on the fire. Keep warm.
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Mike, hatch all those rascals that you can and maybe we can put together a "Poultry Delivery Express" to get them distributed over the country once the ice melts. We just need to work on bird/egg availability and travel routes together to make this work well for everyone.
Congrats on the excellent hatches, not many of us have that good luck with our own incubators. Maybe we could go in together to buy you a couple of the units from John. Then we can ship our eggs to you to hatch!
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Mike, thanks for the info and feedback. They're getting the same layer rations they always have and everyone else gets so I'm pretty sure that's not the case. Haven't wormed them in awhile but I do check regularly for mites/lice. No problem there. Again, I don't think it's worms 'cause none of them are laying and they all seem to weigh just fine and no sign of any.
They are all out in a pen so there is no shavings on the ground. The cold now may have something to do with it but I doubt it cause my other birds are laying. I'm pretty sure I've just got to get more light on them. Good to see you're hatching. I'm envious!
God Bless,
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Well, I spoke too soon. We hit a cold snap and all but 2 hens have stopped laying. I've been running the lights 24/7 for at least 2 weeks and seen nary an egg from the rest. ???
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Well, I spoke too soon. We hit a cold snap and all but 2 hens have stopped laying. I've been running the lights 24/7 for at least 2 weeks and seen nary an egg from the rest. ???
What temps do you consider cold in your area?
Well, I failed to heed my own advice on starting chicks, and lost two of the brown red bantams from my first hatch to pasty butts. I neglected to start them out the first few days on oatmeal flakes. The second batch I started out on oatmeal flakes, and no problems. The other thing I like to do is start them with lukewarm water, as I believe cold water is hard on their little metabolisms. Second batch was almost double the first in terms of numbers, and have another hatch coming off this Tuesday.
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Mike:
It seems I learn something of value from you just about every time you post. Thank you.
Do you buy oats from a feed store or are you talking about oatmeal one can buy in a grocery? Aren't the flakes too large for very young chicks? Do you feed the oatmeal exclusively for the first few days or as a supplement to chick starter? I haven't had recent issues with pasty butt, but better safe than sorry.
Duane
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I'm not sure how Mike does it, but I buy the Quaker "1 minute" oatmeal in the grocery store that comes in the large round canister. I just hatched out baby chicks that started last night around 8:00pm and ended this afternoon around 4:00pm. After seeing that the first chicks hatched (12 hours older) are pecking a little at the newly hatched chicks, I just now sprinkled a little of the oatmeal on the ground (paper towels over shavings for the first couple of days) so the stronger chicks had something to peck at. It's not like they are gobbling it down, it just gives them something to do.
The flakes look kind of big, but they crumble real easy when roll them through your fingers and also when they peck at them. I keep them on straight oatmeal for 2-3 days, then slowly mix in the chick starter for a few more days before giving it to them straight. They like the oatmeal better so I try not to leave them on it for too long. Definitely helps with pasty butt. I rarely see any, and even then it seems milder.
How do you do it, Mike? (Thanks for telling me about this last spring. It works great!)
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Sharon, you are doing it right. It is just regular oatmeal, the kind you make for breakfast. It has bigger flakes and smaller particles, and they love to pick at it and break it up. I have not been trying to make it finer, but it sure couldn't hurt.
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The 1-minute oatmeal is much softer, smaller, and breaks up easier. I accidentally bought the regular once and didn't like it as well, but since I eat a lot of it myself, I ate the regular and bought the chicks the other. Try it sometime. I bet you will like it better, at least for the chicks.
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What temps do you consider cold in your area?
Very moderate compared to you guys, but I think it was the sudden shift. We were having 60s & 70s with a few days in the 80s, unseasonably warm even for here. I have a picture of Walker running around in shorts with a water gun about mid January. There was even an ice cream truck patrolling the cul-de-sac camp behind us. Then temps abruptly dropped by 30 degrees with nights going below freezing.
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It has been at least a week since we got up to freezing here, and several days in a row when it did not rise above zero. I'm running a little heater in the coop just enough to keep the hydrant from freezing up again, and the birds are laying quite well, especially the large fowl. I only have ten LF females, and nine are laying. The other is three years old and molted late.
Sharon, I looked at our oatmeal container, and it is the one minute variety. My wife does all the shopping here, so I never really paid any attention to it.
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Yeah, I was afraid I might get shot for posting those temps. ;) I don't think it was the temps themselves, I think it was the sudden shift from summer-like temps to fall-like temps. Or the fact that I gave away all of my surplus eggs the day before...
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Saw this today, thought of you, Mike: