Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Breeding => Topic started by: John on March 15, 2011, 09:00:52 PM
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I have one pair mating of LF blacks this year that is producing chicks that look black, blue and splash. I should raise some up that appear blue and splash to see what they really are. Even if one of these blacks were a blue they shouldn\'t produce splash. If they both carry white they could produce white chicks, but the down on the chicks looks kind of grayish...their wing feathers are coming in white.
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Looks like someone has some recessive whites in their flock.....
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Yes, these look like recessive whites. Blacks have been outshining the whites since the 1990\'s when white cockerels won champ large fowl at two consecutive national meets, so these may be on a par with the blacks. They will produce all whites when mated among themselves, and about half whites when mated back to their black parents.
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Greeneggsnham, you\'ve probably already figured the obvious; what they\'re not saying, probably because they\'ve been breeding long enough to forget us newbies might not know, is that recessive whites hatch as smokey, sometimes nearly blue or lavender colored chicks. Both black parents are most surely split for recessive white, and will continue to pass this trait on if they, or their black chicks, are used to breed in your black flock.................... or sold to someone else as black Ameraucana.
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Looks like my LF Orpington chicks. Recessive whites hatch out a smokey gray color. I have even had them hatch out to look almost blue, but with a whitish under down.
(http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq272/Korfus_Kluckers/marchorpingtons3013.jpg)
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They are usually grey if based on E or ER at the e locus. But recessive whites based on eWH will be white or yellowish. I used to get them out of my buff bantams - not anymore.
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yes I used to get them out of buff.I used white in the early days to produce buff.I do not think any of that line is still around.I currently get them out of birchen.Did not use any whites there.It is like getting a red headed child when no one remembers a red head in the family.It is just genetics.
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I have not had any blacks throw that color chick, thankfully. I did have a LF blue x splash cross produce a chick that was a very light blue or lavender color overall. No cream on the underside. It turned out to be a splash color. Normally splash is a yellow chick down color, correct? What if anything does that blue down chick color indicate?
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I haven\'t replied to the replies to this topic because I was hoping for another \"blue\" looking chick to get a photo of and two hatched the other day. The reason I said that some \"looked\" splash is that there were 3 colors that came from a pair mating of black (disclaimer - they sure look like blacks to me) birds. Black, blue and spash would go together.
Anyway the ones that looked like they may be splash may very well be white, since I kept at least one and it is feathering out white.
What do you all think is the cause of these that look to be blue. What variety/pattern will they be? Note the wing feathers are showing blue. What is weird is the cream colored areas on their backs appear to show silver on one and gold on the other as they hatched. They are not blue on the backs, but both have a similar pattern...on thier backs and backs of thier heads.
The first photo shows them, from the back side, with 3 of thier black siblings.
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John,
Give them a week and I bet they will be white.......
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I have not had any blacks throw that color chick, thankfully. I did have a LF blue x splash cross produce a chick that was a very light blue or lavender color overall. No cream on the underside. It turned out to be a splash color. Normally splash is a yellow chick down color, correct? What if anything does that blue down chick color indicate?
Trying to learn how to interpret and use this board. Greeneggs&ham, those are not your chicks? Since John credited you as the OP, I figured he moved your chicks picture here from the other thread. I\'m more confused than usual tonight. :p
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No, not my pics or chicks. I don\'t know why my name shows as topic starter.
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John, didn\'t you at one time cross blacks with silvers? My guess is you have a breeding pair of birds that are not homozygous for E. You would think any of those males would show some off coloring, but apparently not in this case. What is interesting to me is the white or creamy patch on the back of the head, as it reminds one of barred chick down. My guess is that either these chicks did not inherit E from either parent, or there is something going on that prevents one copy of E from expressing properly. Since they are showing \"blue\" in the wings already they are not going to be whites.
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I don\'t know why my name shows as topic starter.
I think I originally used my top post as a reply to another topic started by Green Eggs and later \"split\" it off so that it is now a separate topic with a title I gave it. For whatever reason the forum is setup to show the creator of the original topic as the creator of all topics split from it.
cross blacks with silvers?
Sure, but that was to make improvements to the silvers so I didn\'t keep any crosses to produce blacks.
I\'m glad at least two chicks hatched like this to show what appears to be a pattern in the chick\'s phenotype and I don\'t think EE chicks would/should have a pattern. It is interesting that this same pair of breeders produced the white chick and if that is what it is they both carry recessive white besides whatever gene(s) is/are needed to produce these special blues.
I\'ll grow them at least for a while to see how they feather out.
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Can you breed a white chick from one or these matings to a pure white, and get more whites...or is that not a good idea. :thinking: I may have a white from a black mating..it could just be splash. :stare:
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Jensen, I don\'t think you could get a splash from a black to black mating, so if you got a white both parents were carriers of the recessive white gene. You could breed it to another recessive white and get all whites. But if you bred it to a hetero dominant white you would get colored birds.
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The top chick is one that hatched today from the black pair that produced the other chicks of mine on this topic.
The other photo is of the same one that I posted back in February. It is feathering out white.
This new one today just looks different to me than the other. Maybe not much, but the overall color reminds me of the ones I had several years ago that I thought may be smoky (aka smokey). I\'m quite sure that isn\'t what they were after more research.
Anyway the wing feathers aren\'t showing much yet, but they don\'t look white at this point...more gray. I\'ll take another photo in a few days.
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I love that chick down color! Very pretty.
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John, any news on the color development?
I thought you might be interested; my first two white Ameraucanas hatched Saturday, one the color of your first two pictured, the other the same color and pattern [with the white dot on the head quite defined] as the second ones you posted. Their first wing feathers are coming in white, as expected.
PS I alredy knew to expect some that would be indestinguishable from blues; and another from this same group of eggs, hatched by somone I sold them to, produced a chick you would have trouble seperating from a group of blue chicks. This line has a history of this, but always feather white.
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Update...here is one of the chicks that looked \"blue\" when hatched. If it is recessive white at work here it is not alone.
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Got a recessive white out of my silver split X silver split pen a couple of weeks ago....... looks just like that one.
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What is interesting with this guy is all the melanin/gray in his feathers. I don\'t think this is recessive white unless some unknown modifier is at work with it.
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Here are a couple shots of mine.
(http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/5845_rec_white2.jpg)
(http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/5845_rec_white.jpg)
This is out of my silver split over silver split pen. It was a very nice color egg, so I hatched it to see what I would get. I will probably end up using it in my white pen if it is of decent size. I bet it will be a very nice color white with the silver genes it is carrying.
I will probably hatch a few more of these eggs to see if I can get any more.
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Jean,
The ones with the lighter gray chick down seem to feather out white like yours, but the last one I posted was one with the darker gray (blue looking) down. It is white for the most part, but with gray.
Everyone,
I knew these didn\'t look like standard recessive white chick down and that\'s why I posted the photos in February. I\'m willing to consider they are recessive white, but if so it \"it is not alone\" (some other gene(s) is also at work). I think it would be nice to know what I\'m dealing with, but may never know.
I do believe once you know what the day-old chick phenotype should look like for any variety you can do your heaviest culling then.
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That\'s a very interestingly colored chick. I\'ve read of another type of recessive white, only theorized to exist, that does not always fully dilute colors, working more like lav in some instances.
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John, sombody asked if I would post a picture of another sport out of a B/B/S pen, supposedly no chance of a pen jumper. I have not figured out the picture posting here yet, so here\'s a link to the other forum page [if that\'s all right].
http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=6366805#p6366805
ETA: Poat #8794
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another type of recessive white
I\'ve also heard tell of another type of blue that is so light it looks white. Standard recessive white Ameraucana chicks should look like the one posted on our ABC photos page though.
http://ameraucana.org/scrapbook_files/whitelf.jpg
sport out of a B/B/S pen
I don\'t recall ever seeing any like it. The owner did say \"One splash hen is unknown breeder, small, scrawny compared to the others\", so maybe that is the key to the mystery.
have not figured out the picture posting here yet
It\'s easier than some forums and not as easy as others. If you can reduce your pics to under 50KB, it is as easy as any. The instructions are here...
http://ameraucana.org/abcforum/index.php?a=topic&t=208
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John, sombody asked if I would post a picture of another sport out of a B/B/S pen, supposedly no chance of a pen jumper. I have not figured out the picture posting here yet, so here\'s a link to the other forum page [if that\'s all right].
http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=6366805#p6366805
ETA: Poat #8794
That is clearly a crossbred rooster. White shanks don\'t come out of nowhere in pure Ameraucana stock, and his comb appears to be half single, half pea. Either that or he is out of easter eggers. That red leakage would not come out of pure Ameraucana blacks and blues either.
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It\'s easier than some forums and not as easy as others. If you can reduce your pics to under 50KB, it is as easy as any. The instructions are here...
Thank you John, I need to play with my computer to learn to downsize the pics.
That is clearly a crossbred rooster. White shanks don\'t come out of nowhere in pure Ameraucana stock, and his comb appears to be half single, half pea. Either that or he is out of easter eggers. That red leakage would not come out of pure Ameraucana blacks and blues either.
Thanks for the input Mike, those were my thoughts also [though those may be pale slate rather than white shanks], and would suspect the splash hen was an EE. [I\'ve experienced that :p] I had to wonder why that hen, as she described her, was in the breeding pen anyway; but everybody has different ways of doing things I guess.
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John I wonder if these will grow up to be the smokey whites similar to what I showed you in Ky.I thought at that time that it was the work of the lavender gene but now I think no.I will be saving a pair of these for further study.
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smokey whites
Are yours like these from 2002? I had these for a number of years. The gene seemed to work much like lavender. Black was diluted to a very light gray/smoky white and red was diluted also, but not as much. Maybe I\'ve still got it floating around in my LF blacks. Didn\'t think of that.
I quit calling them smoky, since I am quite sure it isn\'t the same as the dominant gene by the name.
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The eggs that I purchased from white Ameraucanas this spring feathered white, though one was hatched blueis. I also purchased a quad of adults at the same time; so far every every chick from the pure whites has hatched looking exactly like the darker chicks you pictured John..................... and are feathering smokey colored or light blue. I also did some splits off my B/B/S and the same white roo; most look like properly bred blue or black, a couple hatched without the light under pattern but with some heavy red bleed, and two hatched yellow with dark back stripes on their backs and light colored shanks. :o However, I finally checked my calender and saw the B/B/S had only cleaned for a little over 2 weeks when I started gathering; they could possibly have been from either a Dark Cornish or a dominate white Ameraucana/CX cross
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Dark Cornish are wheaten at the e locus, and the chicks that were yellow, dark stripes, and light colored shanks sound exactly like wheaten based chicks - mixed with something else.
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Dark Cornish are wheaten at the e locus, and the chicks that were yellow, dark stripes, and light colored shanks sound exactly like wheaten based chicks - mixed with something else.
Thank you for that information Mike.
The oldest striped chick is now feathering gray with some black or dark gray patterning and white tips on its first feathers..................... I\'m guessing it will loose the white tips. It\'s shanks have gone pale slate. I\'m not experienced at matching genotypes to down color, but would take a wild guess it\'s a silver/partidge mix. Since I\'ve not yet hatched one white chick from the white on white breedings, I\'ve toe punched all the chicks from these hatches, suspect both the white roo and some of my B/B/S girls were not carrying the proper genotypes, and calling the chicks EEs. Since the buffalo gnats culled all but one blue hen of both lines, I needed to start over anyway. Unfortunetly , I lost my other line of blues/blacks also.
ETA: Perhaps I spoke too soon; the second Ameraucana chick hatched out today, though not dry yet, appears to have \"dirty white\" down.
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So far I\'ve hatched thirty some eggs from my now deceased flock...................... two are obviously recessive white.
Several were hatched with this pattern; is it the same as John\'s weird genotype? [There are white laced red Cornish chicks in the pics also]
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I don\'t think I\'ve ever seen chick down with that pattern. The white head dot probably means barring, but the big white spot on the back??? No clue, sorry.
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Bigger? The one in the upper right has the same pattern, just more subtle shades.
It has great, dark shank color for a day old. I guess its just another I need to grow out. LOL
ETA: I\'ve gone back through the older posts; one of my chicks with this pattern has feathered identical to John\'s May 8 update. Judging by the shape and color of the eggs, my guess is mine are coming from a B/B/S hen under a white Ameraucana roo; though possibly from a white under the same roo. At this point, the B/B/S hens had been seperated from any other male of any color or age for approaching 5 weeks; I doubt they came from any other than the white Ameraucana roo.
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I think I\'ve finally figured out sizeing.
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Here is one of the two chicks, now 5 days old, that I thought were hatched proper recessive white; I noticed today that it has the same pattern, but hard to see because it\'s very white [silver ?] over greyish white.
The May chick is feathering kinda smoke and white.
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The May chick is feathering kinda smoke and white.
I had a twin to that one that I sold along with 106 other culls on Friday. I fed him/her long enough.
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The May chick is feathering kinda smoke and white.
I had a twin to that one that I sold along with 106 other culls on Friday. I fed him/her long enough.
My pens are empty, and I had just bought feed and another portable breeding/growing pen a day or two before I lost my flock......................... I guess I\'ll keep mine and see if I can figure out this breeds. LOL With Lavs having the fray, and splash blue producing splash, this may be the future. LOL
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An update on my chick pictured above:
They are white. :p With some of the darkest shanks I\'ve ever seen on whites.
Here is a picture taken inside after dusk, she\'s actually a very clean white pullet. Should I use her or the others to breed?
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These birds are from a blue wheaten to blue wheaten mating, so I thought at first they were splash wheaten, but at 6 weeks they\'re still pretty much solid white. There might be a few faint traces of reddish yellow, hard to tell if it\'s dirt or not (that\'s dirt on the wing in photo #3). I\'m guessing at this point recessive white?
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff477/MMFarm/Misc%20Forum%20pics/100_7794.jpg)
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff477/MMFarm/Misc%20Forum%20pics/100_7792.jpg)
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff477/MMFarm/Misc%20Forum%20pics/100_7788.jpg)
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff477/MMFarm/Misc%20Forum%20pics/100_7787.jpg)
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Never seen white chick down like that. The pullet turned out nice though. Looking forward to upcoming pictures.
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Beth,
I don\'t see any muffs and the shanks haven\'t started to darken yet at 6 weeks of age from what I can see. My first thought is a different daddy paid a visit. If that isn\'t a possibility then maybe your recessive white idea.
\"Strange Things Happen in This World\" :)
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A buff cockerel did get in with this pullet (although he would have had to get past the old cock to breed her), so these guys were question marks from the start. But, from what I could find on the projects crossing wheaten into buff, no one mentioned getting white or mostly white birds (I couldn\'t find any pictures). Unless it was the buff, this was a father/daughter breeding, so if there was something recessive it would\'ve been a good opportunity for it to pop up. I\'ve been tempted to bathe them to see how much rust comes off. I can already see why white is not a popular color.
I wasn\'t sure about the legs, so I walked out to check. Their legs have started to darken, the flash must have just washed them out. I\'m pretty sure they hatched w/beards, and they have some stubble, I think they\'re just plucking each other.