Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Ameraucana Marketplace => Topic started by: Guest on January 01, 2006, 12:16:09 PM
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I would like the advise from this forum concerning a new variety of ameraucana.
What new variety of ameraucana would ameraucana fanciers like to see produced?
Please, no lectures on working on the established varieties.
Rooster
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Something rare, not found in many breeds would be nice. I have done polls on 3 major poultry sites (privately in email) and have found that the #1 reason people were choosing to breed Ameraucanas was egg color. #2 reason was the unusual colors such as Blue Wheaten and Wheaten. Unless someone breeds pit games, which is illegal in many areas, they are unlikely to find these colors in other breeds (although OEGB has almost every color and is highly popular).
One color I have worked with in the past in my Key West Gypsies was Cuckoo Red Partridge. To my knowledge, it is only found in the Bielefelder of Germany as an established color.
bielefelder hen (http://www.geocities.com/erichmayer/BielefelderKennHenne_238x248.JPG)
barring in male (http://www.kippengrabbelton.be/engalfa/bielefelcol.htm)
Some people have also worked on pure orange barred fowls as well. I have crossed a cuckoo red gypsy cock to an ameraucana hen and I am awaiting the first hatch.
I would definetly suggest something rare/unusual. Many gamefowl colors are red based and since many of the standard and developed colors are red based, perhaps one could look to the American Game for colors?
(or color crosses within Ameraucana could work, for a white to a Red of some sort makes Pyle and I have made Crow Winged Red Polish from a White Crested Black cock on a Buff Laced hen)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c293/AmeraucanaMD/beutroo.jpg) My cockerel
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I would like the advise from this forum concerning a new variety of ameraucana.
What new variety of ameraucana would ameraucana fanciers like to see produced?
Please, no lectures on working on the established varieties.
Rooster
Well forgoing the lectures I would say the best thing would be to breed something that would go with what we have or something that may be will make the breed more appealing to the folks not already raising the breed. The people working with the milky gene are doing this as it goes with Black. You could do Lemon Blue....it would go with Brown Red. One of my favorite colors in Chickens is Salmon as in Salmon Favoroles. I don\'t have them....and probably won\'t get any....but the color is very pleasing. Red as in Red Cochins would be nice.....you don\'t see many chickens that color anymore. Red as in RIR would be nice too....RIR\'s are really getting to be more popular in the showroom.
But I would stick to what is here and work on a breed that is in trouble....I think all of us should pick a breed like that and try to help preserve it....John B is doing that with the Vorworks (sp?).
Happy New Year !!! Thurman
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What new variety of ameraucana would ameraucana fanciers like to see produced?
I know of four varieties that some of us are working on and could help with. Black gold & lavender in both LF and bantams. The black gold bantams have the most people working on them and are close to being where they need to be, but we just made our first crosses for the other three this past year.
Jim Tuckwood, of WI, has been working on red bantams.
As Mike mentioned, a few were breeding to develop barred LF several years ago but they have given up to the best of my knowledge.
:rolleyes:
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Really? Barred would be relatively easy to introduce! I cannot believe they gave up on it!!
I also have an F1 AmeraucanaxRIR cross. He is completely Mohogany in all feathers. However, he carries a defect which eliminates the last digits of the middle toes on both feet and I am reluctant to breed him.
I love Lemon Blues! They would be an excellent color.
The rare breed which I raise is (obviously) the Key West Gypsy. I will soon be head of developing the Rose Combed variety and getting it set to standard in the coming years.
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Also, what are the four varieties?
Lavender, Black Gold and Red...what was the other?
I should be going to Delmarva show this year...I could bring some of my birds even though I cannot show most of the breeds and varieties which I posses (nonstandard). The man in charge of running the show said that the Ameraucana Breeders Club had not responded to his inquiry on a club meet there and he was waiting for a reply.
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I am currently working on the Lavendar bantams and large fowl. I am also working to improve the Silver bantams.
Some other varieties that I think would be fairly easy to obtain are splash and splash wheatons (Perhaps these could have a catchy name like Pyle Wheatons since the males look like the Red Pyle color).
Some other not so easy, but obtainable colors are Birchen and Golden (like the golden Phoenix).
Remember that if you do create a new variety, It would require a concerted effort by the ABC to get the variety in the standard. That means you would have to get other breeders interested in your new variety to get them recognized.
Best Regards
Curtis
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Really? Barred
Please check the posts by Rooster and Mike Gilbert under the Breeding blues and blue wheaten topic.
Also, what are the four varieties?
The four varieties that I mentioned were black gold & lavender in both LF and bantams. Two or more of us are working on each of these and we need at least 5 for 5 years to try to get them accepted. Only one person is working on the bantam reds that I know of, so that would take even more interested breeders.
the Ameraucana Breeders Club had not responded to his inquiry on a club meet there
According to our Meet Policy \"...Meets will only be placed by a district director if a member in his or her district requests a meet for a specific show in time for the distribution of information via the ABC quarterly Bulletin prior to the entry deadline for that show...\" Evidently no member has requested a meet for that show.
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Some other varieties that I think would be fairly easy to obtain are splash and splash wheatons
Thanks Curtis, I\'d forgotten that Paul and some others are interested in splash. I beleive it is under another topic.
Lets take a surrvey of who is working on what new varieties. I\'ll start with what I think I know (below) and let me know any names that I should add or delete,
Bantam black gold, Mike Gilbert, Wayne Gritter, Beth Collier, Angela Stanley, Alnice Nichols, Michael Muenks, Lyne Peterson, John Blehm.
LF black gold, Lyne Peterson, Michael Muenks, John Blehm.
Bantam lavender (aka self blue), Susie Winder, Curtis Beck, Michael Muenks, John Blehm.
LF lavender (aka self blue), Curtis Beck, Michael Muenks, John Blehm.
Bantam red, Jim Tuckwood. (I don\'t know of any plans to have this variety recognized.)
LF & bantam - splash & splash wheaten, check out the SPLASHES topic on page two.
LF blue silver, Mike Gilbert. (I don\'t know of any plans to have this variety recognized.)
Bantam & LF blue gold, Lyne Peterson. (I don\'t know of any plans to have these varieties recognized.)
Note: There are topics on page three and perhaps elsewhere on this forum that discuss the lavender & black gold projects.
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Is it possible to get a photo of each of these varieties posted? That would certainly go along way to help new breeders decide if that is a variety they wanted to work toward. In addition to the photo it would be wonderful to have the description of each proposed variety that everyone is breeding toward so that we would all be working toward the same goal.
Right now we are just working on the wheaten and blue wheaten in bantam and will be persuing a nice silver standard male to begin working with our standard silvers.
I must agree that the salmon and the lemon blue varieties are also two of my favorites.
~Patty~
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The list of unrecognized varieties at Bantam Hill currently being bred:
Black Gold - bantam, since 2003
Black Gold - large fowl, since 2005
Self Blue - bantam, since 2005
Self Blue - large fowl, since 2005
Black-tailed Red - bantam, since 2004
millie fluer - bantam, since 2004
crele/cuckoo - large fowl, since 2005
Blue Silver - large fowl, 2006
Blue Silver - bantam, 2005
I have both splash and wheaten splash bird here and there and I am willing to save birds to make breeding pens. I have some crele and cuckoo birds running around in both bantam and large fowl running around, but I have basically abandoned the bantam strain and I am focusing on large fowl cockerel that migh pass the slate/black test - but I don\'t hold out much hope and will probably abandon them all based on what I am seeing. I would love to see the red barred, but I don\'t think we will ever get a slate or black leg on a barred or cuckoo bird unless there is an heirloom variety to steal a rare gene from. My large fowl cross was to a cuckoo Maran that had black legs. I think it is really just excessive spotting that would pass as a black or slate leg the cockerel is good, but I don\'t hold out much hope.
That being said, if I was to look at a rare color to pursue, and one I am likely to pursue, it would be Exchequer. This really harkens back to one of the first bantam hens I ever had that was what I now know to be Exchequer in color. She was a mixed bantam, but I have always loved the color. I had considered mottled, but I really like the Exchequer and will be ordering some leghorn stock this spring and will start some initial crosses in late fall 2006.
All of this is a lot of fun and good for the brain. The problem is that there have to be people willing to commit to a program long-term. Of the eight recognized varieties of Ameraucana I doubt there is really a sustainable population of most of the varieties. If a few people leave Ameraucana\'s in several varieties, there simply will not be that variety and it will have to be recreated, ie silver bantam.
I agree with the statement that it would be best if new varieties work with another variety - it helps the sustainability factor. So splash and splash wheaten seem logical. I would content that self blue can be sustainable with either black lines or brown red lines, so I support lavendar. I realize the other colors on my list are not paired with anything and so they have been mostly out of pure enjoyment and I wouldn\'t expect them to gain a following.
Happy New Year!
Michael Muenks
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I would be willing to work on more varieties if I could obtain the stock. The main issue here is finding the birds to work with. When you live in some of the last vestiges of rural land, and island in a land of a suburban county...it is hard to find other breeders, many of whom illegally hold their birds in neighborhoods and thus are not stable.
All of those varieties sound amazing to me. I enjoy fiddling with color a lot too. Although I have latent issues with identifying Red colors, I don\'t mind taking the time to correct mistakes. I am trying to think of breeds with cuckoo and black legs...only one I can think of is the silkie, but fibromelanosis of the entire fowl is responsible and not an acceptable coloration.
I don\'t have any Ameraucana bantams, but I would love to start breeding them. All I have are Black and White large fowl and a few miscellanious. There is a decent silver hen and a poor wheaten (apparently) cock among a few others. The cock will go to my Red Pyles (for fun). I also have a Red cock and some Barred eggs in the bator.
If anyone is going to PA/MD/VA/DE/WV and can deliver birds to shows this spring I would be willing to purchase some stock in eggs, chicks or adults of colors which need improvement. Last year I culled my flock sizes in half and I have several empty pens which once housed extra blacks and whites. I also have shipping boxes and express permission from my post office to send and recieve fowl without surcharge in payment. From some artwork I sold recently I have quite a bit of spare cash and lots of pen room.
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If anyone is going to PA/MD/VA/DE/WV and can deliver birds to shows this spring I would be willing to purchase some stock in eggs, chicks or adults
With your membership you\'ll get a Breeders List and a copy of the last ABC Bulletin which has a list of all the 2005 members. It may be helpful in tracking down some birds. I know we have a couple members in Maryland and a few in Pennsylvania. Try contacting our NE District Director, Larry Clionsky - lclionsky@yahoo.com. He is a real asset to the club and tries to attend most of the ABC meets in that district.
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AmeraucanaMD,
The barring itself is not the problem. The problem is the effect of barring on dermal melanin. The barring gene prevents the addition of melanin to the dermal tissues therefore the chicken does not have blue shanks. Ameraucana should have blue shanks. The exception to the rule is the black variety which can have dark shanks. Dark shanks in ameraucana are due to the extended black gene which causes the addition of melanin to the epidermis and even into the dermis.
Mike,
Jaap wrote a paper in 1955 ( Poultry Science, 34:Pages 389-395) in which he came to the conclusion that the columbian gene (Co) would prevent the barring gene from removing the melanin from the dermis. I do not know what line of birds he was working with but I wish I could get a hold of a few of his chickens. Evidently, his study does not apply to many of the breeds that are walking around today. Barred rocks are a good example because many show quality barred rocks carry the columbian gene but still have yellow legs and feet.
Rooster
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I really like the lemon blue color, too. Are the blue silvers the same as silver blue Old English Games? Those would be my two favorites to see in Ameraucanas. What crosses would be made to produce these two varieties?
I will be attempting lavender wheatens this year. I made the first cross last summer and will hatch as many F2 chicks as I can this year--hoping for a couple of the elusive \"1 out of 16\" ratio!
Susie
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Suz,
Blue silver (what I have in L.F. Am\'s) and silver blue are two different colors. They are both described in Bantam Standard. Blue silver is essentially the silver pattern we currently have with the dominant BL gene added, which dilutes the black pigment so that it looks bluish grey. Silver blue, on the other hand, is like lemon blue except the birds are pure for the dominant S gene. Brown reds are pure for \"s\" (gold) and lack the BL gene. Take a brown red, add BL(one copy, and add \"s\" (two copies in males - S and/or s are on the sex link chromosome) and you would have a silver blue. So as you can see brown red, lemon blue, blue silver, and birchen are all somewhat similar in genotype.
Mike G.
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I know about the leg color issues. I also am aware of the Columbian gene influence upon allowing pigment in the legs. In crosses among certain fowl I have had unexpected results in leg color. I cannot find any breeds with both barred and Columbian restrictions...
What about autosomal barring? I looked on ideal hatchery\'s page just to see if there were any barred breeds with blue legs. Campines fit this description. Is there a reason that an autosomal barred bird could not be used? I can pick up a few somewhere off of BYC or Poultry Egg Swappers or PYA in the spring. Also, Sicilian Buttercups have the same color variety and I know of at least two very active breeders with excess birds. Both are white egg layers and one has a simple single comb, which is easy to deal with. Campines have a hen feathering modifyer though so some other breed may be better.
I figured the breeders directory would have local members in it but I won\'t recieve it until some weeks after tommorow when I send my form in. I know of one breeder from whom I got my start in these fowl but I suspect he may have moved or no longer breeds the birds. I was very impressed with his extensive waterfowl and exotic collections. He was up in Severna Park or Pasadena.
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AmeraucanaMD,
What about autosomal barring?
Campines are ER/ER, co+/co+, Db/Db, ml+/ml+, Pg/Pg, W+/W+, id+/id+. No problem with shank and feet color but the epidermis could be a bit darker because of the ER gene. The birchen gene can add melanin to the epidermal tissues. A person can get rid of the henny feathering (Hf) without a problem. But there is a problem with gene linkage. W/w+, O/o+, P/p+, Db/db+ and Pg/pg+ are all linked on the same chromosome ( group lll chromosome #1). The white skin should not be a problem because both have white skin. The O and P genes are linked very closely , 4 map units, and that is a good thing. The problem does appear in that the db+ gene is linked to the O and P genes by 33 map units while the pg+ is linked to the O and P genes by 53 map units. The O and P loci are found on the short arm while the Db and Pg loci are found on the long arm of the chromosome.
This linkage will impact the independent assortment of the Db/db and the Pg/pg+ in the F1 heterozygotes during sperm or egg formation. I figure to get a bird that is autosomal barred ( Db/Db, Pg/Pg) and P/P and O/O genotypes in the F2 the probabilities are approximately 1 chance in 150. :(
Of couse that is assuming the Db and Pg cross over while linked together.
I cannot find any breeds with both barred and Columbian restrictions...
The barred rock and the delaware are two barred birds that carry sex linked barring and the columbian gene. The extended black gene is epistatic to the columbian gene therefore the bird has a black body with silver barring. In the case of the delaware, the black in its body is based upon eb and black intensifiers therefore the black is essentially removed from the body allowing the silver gene to color the body. Take a look at the tail feathers and hackles of a delaware-they are barred.
Rooster
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The fact is that even though the chances are remote it is still possible to get a barred slate shanked fowl. It would take awhile, but it would be possible. I may just pick up a hen for fun somewhere. Doubtless someone can ship some eggs come spring. I just like to play with these things. I hatch thousands of eggs in a year with three incubators running from February to December of each year nonstop (except for cleaning). Even with 1/150 luck sometimes runs on your side.
When playing with color I never expect for success in the F2! I have F8 cuckoo silkies and they aren\'t even correct yet!
Not all Delawares are barred. (Delawares are a breed that really needs to be improved. I just have them for fun but they certainly vary) I have two Delaware hens and one Barred rock hen. They all have white legs and pass it onto their offspring as well. I have ghost barreds from the barred rock. Same yellow legs.
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Thanks for your comments.
Rooster
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Thanks for yours. :D
I sent in my club fees this morning!
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Either John B is the only one paying attention or else nobody else wants to poke fun at me. Suz, in my previous message, second to last sentence, the result would be lemon blue, not silver blue. To get silver blue you would start with brown red, add the dominant BL gene, and the large S (dominant sex linked silver). Sorry, sometimes the keyboard gets ahead of the brain.
Mike G.
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Is it possible to get a photo of each of these varieties posted?
Here\'s a picture of one of my self-blue d\'Anvers. The lavender Ameraucanas will be this color.
(http://www.frontiernet.net/~susiewinder/danver.jpg)
I have been unable to locate even a picture of another breed in the lavender wheaten variety, but as soon as I get one of my own, I will post it! ;)
Susie
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Rooster,
I realized I had never answered your original question so I spent some quality time with the Bantam Standard last night looking at plumage colors and the following were attactive to me:
gold barred
spangled
speckled
black tailed red
millie fluer and it\'s derivatives
Bantam
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There is an ad that I sometimes see in the Poultry Press for Silver Spangled Araucanas. But I don\'t think they are the APA standard Araucana, but more like Easter Eggers. Might give you a boost in the right direction if someone was going to work with the Spangled colors.
Curtis
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Curtis,
Thanks for the information. I am working on a breeding project with appenzeller spitzhauben and they have some beautiful spangling. They are genetically eb/eb (black), S/S, Db/Db, Ml/Ml and Pg/Pg. The Db gene removes most of the black from the body feathers and interacts with the Pg gene and Ml gene to form a spangle on the end of the feather. Some of my easter eggers already carry Pg and Db and Ml. They have some patterns already. This should help decrease my odds of getting a good pattern. I do not have any silver birds and it would be better if I did have them.
Is the poultry press an online publication or is it a paper pulication?
Rooster
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Rooster,
Poultry Press is a monthly paper publication, but they do have a website. You can find it at: www.poultrypress.com . The January issue ran 68 pages. I\'m going to take a wild guess and say your first name is Dan. Am I correct?
Mike Gilbert
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Speaking of the Poultry Press...did you notice there are two photos of Susie on page 28 and she is sporting an ABC t-shirt!
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Mike,
No, my name is not Dan. Mike from Bantam Hill knows who I am. I have corresponded with him in the past.
Rooster
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has anyone ever tried to work on the quail color variety that comes from the Ideal Hatchery? I got some 2 years ago, easter eggers of course, and ended up with a rooster in my batch of 4 \'all pullets\'. they are beautiful birds with big thick muffs and beards, pea combs... and legs green as tree leaves. but I let one of the hens brood out a few eggs, and got 7 babies that were 100% true in color- including the legs. my last cockerel from that batch last year produced 5 offspring on a white Ameraucana pullet a couple of months ago. again they are 100% true to color, including the green legs.
okay, the point of all this is, does anyone out there have any interest in working on a Quail variety? these birds of mine seem on the reddish side, less brown than the quail D\'Anvers we have. body type needs work, but they have better beards and muffs than any of my \'standardbred\' Ameraucana. they are also much pleasanter in temperament than my bantam blues.
just for my amusement, what color crosses can I use to try to introduce slate legs/ white skin? I have 2 breeding pens of LF buffs right now- is this something that works with the quail pattern? since a very big defining point of being Ameraucana is \'color breeds true at least 50% of the time\', it seems like a color that seems to stick pretty well, like these easter eggers of mine, might have some hope if the leg color can be corrected.
I\'m just to the point where my little half acre is so overcrowded with goats, horses, turkey pens, and my nephew\'s 9 varieties of OEGB, plus my few chickens, that I am trying to limit how many more pens I have to put up out there. for this reason I am not going to try the lemon blue Ameraucana at this time. but I already have the quail EE\'s.
any suggestions?
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these are pics of last year\'s \'Quail\' easter eggers. does that seem an accurate description for the color, or is there a better one?
this roo crossed with a white LF (green leg) threw a batch that are so far identical in color (except some pullets have a browner base color, some are more golden like this pullet), but I need to get white skin into them to get rid of willow legs. I have buff LF, but their leg color is very light blue. or is there another variety that won\'t dominate the quail color?
any suggestions welcome! I haven\'t found any genetic info so far about dominance of the quail color variety in regards to other, standard colors.
thank you!
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My name is Dan, lol. :)
I\'m working with many of the colors and varieties that have been mentioned, add to them the laced varieties. Laced varieties of Ameraucana are the one thing that I personally feel are sorely missing in the Ameraucana world and they work so well with other color/pattern genetics. Gold, silver, blue laced red as well as the asian game\'s \'laced yellow-clay\'... you name it! Mottled Ameraucanas would be a great side variety produced by a laced breeding project too. With the addition of the lavender variety you could even have your porcelains.
Btw, does anyone have any idea what the muff color or pattern would be on an autosomal barred bird? Never seen an autosomal barred \"muffed\" breed myself.
Dan
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I have Exchequer segregating out in my chicks this year but it is interfering with dermal melanin. I\'ve looked all over the net and not had any luck finding a mottled breed with dark shanks.
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Mottling will inhibit dermal melanin and that is why you can not get mottling and a dark shank. Even if your bird is id+ the mottling prevents the addition of the eumelanin to the dermis.
Alouez,
Quail e+/e+, s+/s+, Co/Co ( e locus could be eb, eWh)
You want to find a breed that has white skin and is quail. The yellow skin is making the legs green.
Rooster
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