Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Ameraucana Marketplace => Topic started by: Guest on January 04, 2006, 11:05:08 PM
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QUESTION!
If ya\'ll keep breeding for plumage colors derived from brown egg laying breeds won\'t this just reinforce the green egg problem?
Lets not lose sight of what makes this breed unique... BLUE not green eggs!
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I take the very simple approach to egg shell color genetics when working with a new variety, ie lavender/self blue.
So for my cross of black Ameraucana x Old English lavender last year I chose my very best type and egg shell color hens and cocks for the cross. The results have been good . . . a slightly turqois egg shell. In the simplest genetics each bird has one blue gene and one off white gene.
This year I am taking this generation and mating them together. In theory pullets should lay 25% should be off white, 50% turqois, and 25% sky blue . . . so I must raise a good number of offspring. I plan to keep all of the pullets until maturity and will breed the sky blue layers back to a black Ameraucana cock of known egg shell genetics so that I have the cleanest egg shell genes in the lavendar plummage.
Michael
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I use birds that lay eggs with white shells to do my out crossing. If you have to use a brown egg shell layer, you can use a white egg layer to eliminate the brown. You make a cross with a white egg layer then back cross the F1 to a parent (P generation). In two generations I have eliminated any brown that was in the original parent. My work may be anecdotal but it works for me.
Rooster
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Rooster,
That is a great strategy!
Bantam
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If you have to use a brown egg shell layer, you can use a white egg layer to eliminate the brown.
Very interesting. Do you think it was because the white egg laying bird didn\'t have the color modifying genes, that many brown egg layers do. If so and if the modifying genes are recessive it seems like there is a possibility that some could show up again in future generations.
???
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I have read that there may be a dozen or more genes that produce brown shell color. Within that spectrum there are probably dominants and recessives. I do know that I occasionally get a darker brown egg laying pullet out of my Silver Wyandotte bantams, a strain that usually lays just a slightly tinted egg (very light tan). There are a few large fowl breeds that lay white eggs and also have red earlobes, but not many. White in the earlobe is a disqualification for ameraucanas, and it can be difficult to eliminate once introduced. I think the ideal outcross would be with another breed with slate legs, red lobes, and lays white eggs. The Crevecoeur would be one example, and they have muffs to boot! Unfortunately, I think they only come in solid black.
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I have mostly worked with white leghorns. It has been my experience that the white leghorns carry other factors that make their eggs white. What leghorns may carry a recessive sex linked gene that inhibits brown egg color. I have no evidence that this is the case. All I know is that something is happening that helps eliminate or reduce the brown egg color. It may be a combination of the blue egg gene and modifiers that cause the reduction in the brown color. As I stated, my evidence is only antecdotal, I could do some test crossing and gather some data but I do not have the time now
As Mike stated there are as many as 13 different proposed genes that would work together to produce the varing shades of brown. The addition of the brown pigment ooporphyrin to an egg can be a problem because of all the genes involved.
I have been working on egg color for the past four years and have not addressed the question of ear lobe color. I do know that ear lobe color is polygenic.
Bantam,
I was thinking about working on a lemon blue variety and a gold spangled or silver spangled variety. That way I could work on brown-red, black and blue along with the lemon blue. I think a spangled variety would be great. I will be getting some brabanters, andalusian blue, Iowa blue and catalana large fowl this spring. I will work with them to produce the new varieties. I believe the brabanters carry the ig or cream gene and I would like to see how the cream gene would effect the hackle color in the lemon blues.
I would like to thank everybody for their input.
If there is any interest, I will post pictures of birds as they progess.
Rooster
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Whew! I looked up those Crevecoeurs and that have a mighty big poofy crest! :o
Mike do Araucanas have better egg color in general than Ameraucanas? Would breeding to them be in order if so?
I\'m sick of green eggs and ham Sam. :(
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The crest can be eliminated in just two generations. Very simple to do. I would start with a Creve. male over black Ameraucana females, then breed the F-1 generation together.
Using this process, about 25 percent of the F-2 generation will have no crest. Once it\'s gone, it\'s gone forever, because it is a dominant, not a recessive. From there on it\'s just a matter of selection for improved egg color.
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Well I can handle the crest thing but how will this help me if I have green egg layers to start out with?
Does the white egg gene improve the green egg gene and result in blue eggs??
Do the Crevs have a pea comb?
And what are your (or anybody elses) thoughts on breeding Ameraucana X Araucanas to improve egg color if they indeed have better egg color?
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The crest can be eliminated in just two generations. Very simple to do.
I crossed LF Polish with my buffs several years back and as Mike said eliminating the crests is easy.
The biggest problem may be getting back to a good pea comb.
And what are your (or anybody elses) thoughts on breeding Ameraucana X Araucanas to improve egg color if they indeed have better egg color?
Some Araucana varieties/strains are bound to have better egg color than some Ameraucana varieties/strains and I would guess that the opposite is true. Some people have the misconception that Ameraucanas were bred from Araucanas. They were both bred up from non-standard chickens that have the blue egg gene (aka Easter Egg chickens). I do know at least one Araucana breeder bought bantam Ameraucana buffs from me to develop buff Araucanas, so some crosses have been made. Due to the willow legs of Araucanas I would not advice anyone to us them to develop or improve Ameraucanas, unless they have no other options and are looking for a long term breeding project.
I think the best way to improve egg color is to breed Ameraucanas to Ameraucanas. Hatch as many as possible and only hatch from the bluest eggs - year after year.
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So if willow legs are a concern why would one use brown egg layer breeds to improve Ameraucanas because the brown egg breeds can result in yellow beaks and skin and willow legs, right?
If Ameraucanas were bred up from Easter Eggers...what breed did the Easter Eggers get the blue egg gene from?
Does anybody know of any hatcheries or breeders that have good quality blue egg laying Easter Eggers?
John I do not have the facilities to raise hundreds of chicks in hopes of getting a handful of blue egg layers.
I really would like to find some blue egg layers that I could buy to increase my odds.
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If Ameraucanas were bred up from Easter Eggers...what breed did the Easter Eggers get the blue egg gene from?
From the chickens that were imported from South America. Refer back to the Nat. Geographic mag. that I sent.
Remember that the blue egg laying birds were already crossed with many other breeds before they were bred up to Ameraucanas and Araucanas. It is not as if Easter Eggers laid beautiful blue eggs and Ameraucana breeders diluted the egg color. We have been working for decades to develop standard breeds and varieties and at the same time breeding for blue eggs. If we only bred for egg color we could have had it years ago, but that is only part of the goal.
So if willow legs are a concern why would one use brown egg layer breeds to improve Ameraucanas because the brown egg breeds can result in yellow beaks and skin and willow legs, right?
Yes, from some but not all. Some brown egg laying breeds have been used when there was nothing better to use.
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Please don\'t get the wrong picture here...I am not disresepecting what many of you have done to create this breed and I don\'t think in any breed you should breed for just one thing. I whole heartedly agree there must be a balance in type, vigor, egg production, egg shell color and temperment, but I for one would like to see less green eggs and I\'m just trying to find some blues and/or blacks with better egg color. Maybe its easy to fix egg color but I don\'t know how I can do that if I can\'t find any blues or blacks with good egg color.
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Maybe its easy to fix egg color but I don\'t know how I can do that if I can\'t find any blues or blacks with good egg color.
I have cut back on a few varieties that Barbara and Paul have and I feel confident that those varieties won\'t die out because they are in good hands.
Some LF varieties do lay nice blue eggs. If you are just interested in LF blacks and blues I would suggest first finding out if Paul has enough hens that lay blue eggs to get an order from just those eggs.
To breed to improve the egg color of the LF blacks and blues I would cross to LF whites that lay \"blue\" eggs. The second best cross may be to bantam blacks and/blues that lay \"blue\" eggs.
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Thanks John, I will get ahold of Paul and Barbara and please email me if you have anything that you think will work for me.
Also anybody else that might have some good egg color in their LF blacks, blues or whites.
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P.S.
If you will go to my website and look at the photo on the top of my Ameraucana page you will see 4 eggs of varying color.
Depending on how your computer shows the colors because I know it can vary...the only one that I feel is good color is 2nd from the right.
The others are shades of green from very faded, almost white to drab olive green although its not that dark olive green its still drab green.
http://www.freewebs.com/cottage_rose_birdsnblossoms/ameraucanachickens.htm
The 2nd photo on the same page was enhanced slightly but the bluest eggs on the top were from some silvers I got from John 4-5 years ago that I no longer have.
Can we discuss the eggs colors shown in the first photo so we can find out if we are all on the same page?
I would especially like to know what you old timer Am. breeders have to say regarding egg color in the photo.
Sorry...I didn\'t mean to change the subject on this thread.
John if you want to copy the egg color comments/replies and put them into a new thread on egg color please feel free.
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Maybe this photo will get a response from somebody.
As you can see in this photo it shows 2 green eggs. These are from Ameraucanas not EEL. The pale blue eggs in my opinion are very nice color. These were from some Silvers I no longer have. So this is what I mean by green eggs and what I have been getting so far in the blacks and blues I have personally owned is predominantly pale to medium green not blue eggs. If anybody has any LF blacks and blues with pale blue (like in this photo) or blue-green eggs on a somewhat consistant basis please mail me.
Any input on this topic appreciated.
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My Blacks have always layed only pale to medium blue, never green. I still have two older hens that are about eight years old that lay an egg every other day of perfect coloration. I don\'t add outside cocks for fear of adding birds of green egg descent, but I do add outside blue egg hens once in awhile. So far, so good on the blacks!
I had some issues with a white cock\'s offspring awhile ago but since then I have managed to cull out the green egger lines.
I never realized there was an issue with egg color. I thought most purebreds layed nice eggs. Guess I\'ve been very lucky the whole time without realizing it.
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Ameraucana MD...So where did you get yours from?
Can you post photos of your eggs?
By the way I want to clarify that the white and brown eggs in the photos were NOT laid by Ameraucanas!
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Local breeder named Eric something of Severna Park. The phone # I have for him is disconnected. As soon as I get my directory I was going to check and see if he was in it. I don\'t know what stock he has now if he still has any fowl.
I will get some photos as soon as they start laying again. Some Minorcas are laying, but that\'s about it at the moment.
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Okay! That will be cool! :D
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as to the \"willow\" legg color, not all brown egg breeds have yellow skin, their are many that are white skinned, these don\'t creat willow leggs when used in out crosses, so might be a possibility in not gringing in another undesired trait, which by the way I think breeding out the willow leggs is by far the hardest thing to perfect. we are at 6 generations out, and still have them pop up occasionaly