Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Ameraucana Marketplace => Topic started by: Blue Egg Acres on March 08, 2006, 12:53:39 PM
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I\'ve heard/read talk about crossing LF and bantams and regaining size within a few generations without difficulty. I\'ve not done this but have been plagued with some smaller than desired birds because I used a small hen a couple of years ago because she was nicely colored and had good type. I sold her this past fall but have a cockerel from her(his daddy was huge!) that is very nice other than the fact he is too small. I\'ve been afraid to use him as a breeder even though I need him. Is there something I\'m missing here? Should I be able to use him? Is there something other than simply selecting his larger(hopefully) offsping for next year\'s breeders to get back the desired size? Thanks!
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Barbara,
I know there is some \"real\" information out there and I will try to find it. I will share my experiences . . . a bantam x a large fowl gave hens that could pass for large fowl. A large fowl cock over bantam hens gave intermediate sized birds of both sexes.
My suggestion would be to use him over your largest hens and keep track of the chicks.
Michael
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Good advice Michael. Remember, the large wheatens and blue wheatens were originally bred up from bantams by Wayne Meredith. Some of those size modifiers could be lurking in the strain yet today. I would definitely go with compensation matings in a situation like this.
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the large wheatens and blue wheatens were originally bred up from bantams by Wayne Meredith
The wheaten cockerel that I have was sired by a cock I bought from Wayne. He was huge and the son looks big to me and weighs 5 pounds. Now I checked the Standard and see that cockerels should be 5 1/2 pounds and cocks 6 1/2 pounds, but I don\'t think most Ameraucana LF are as big as they should be (if you use a scale).
I have crossed LF and bantams before, but recommend it as an all most last resort (just one guy’s opinion). The dwarf/bantam gene can haunt you for generations. I don\'t have proof of it but wonder if there is more than one gene involved. It is not worth doing if after crossing LF and bantam you have to make an outcross to bring back size.
One cross that I\'ve considered is wheaten to blue LF to help with both the size and type of wheatens/blue wheatens. Mike originally made that cross in bantams to develop blue wheaten. The LF black and blues have some of the best type of all Ameraucana LF and I think a really big blue with great type and lacing would be something to work with.
I have crossed LF buff and wheaten, but after seeing the F1 generation think it may be difficult breed out the additional genes brought in by the buffs. I think this cross would be better used to improve buffs since they are already wheaten (recessive, but some may dominate - at least in LF buff) at the E-locus.
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The Blacks and Blues we had gotten from Paul Smith were all quite large and deffinately up to snuff for size.
I also noticed that Larry\'s whites were quite large too.
But I think that silvers tend to be smaller?
not sure why? as our own were smaller to begin with and even his were smaller in size than the blacks and blues\'
It is possibly the breeds used to make them up were smaller??
we don\'t have a large number, and right now selection for color etc are important..but I did notice a few of the culls were actualy larger too than the ones with the better color..any yep..we kep the better colord ones, not the ones that were lager.
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One cross that I\'ve considered is wheaten to blue LF to help with both the size and type of wheatens/blue wheatens. Mike originally made that cross in bantams to develop blue wheaten. The LF black and blues have some of the best type of all Ameraucana LF and I think a really big blue with great type and lacing would be something to work with.
What are the 1st generation results of this cross(What % of the offspring are blue, wheaten, or blue wheaten)? How many generations does it take before you\'re producing wheatens/blue wheatens?
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What are the 1st generation results of this cross
I\'ve only concidered it so far, so I don\'t know.
Using a black instead of a blue may do as well, but I think a well laced blue would pass on the lacing genes.
I did cross LF silver and black a few years ago and am still trying to get the silvery white color back. I only have one silver cockerel from that line left.
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I think the blue x wheaten makes the most sense especially considering it\'s been proven already. Maybe Mike can give us the basics on making this cross when he finishes up tax season.
Thanks guys for your input!
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I think the blue x wheaten makes the most sense especially considering it\'s been proven already. Maybe Mike can give us the basics on making this cross when he finishes up tax season.
Thanks guys for your input!
Mike, I\'m bringing this thread to the top hoping for your input. I\'m specifically interested in knowing your thoughts on crossing blue with wheaten again. I\'ve culled heavily this year and am only keeping the 2 biggest cockerels that weigh 5.5 lbs each at 6 1/2 months. I\'m keeping 1 older hen weighing 4.4lbs and 7 pullets ranging in weight from 3.2 - 4.11 lbs. This last pullet is the largest female I believe I\'ve ever produced.
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Thanks Barb. I never read the last couple of posts on this thread because of the tax season. I don\'t remember how many generations it took, because it was back in the late \'70\'s and early \'80\'s . But I suspect it would take no less than three generations and possibly more. If you make the cross, I would try to seek out a black or a blue male that shows some red (not silver or amber) feathers in head or hackle. Otherwise you could end up with silver wheatens instead of wheatens. I don\'t think it makes any difference whether you use a blue or a black to increase size - I would just select the best possible bird with great type and size.
Also try to find an outcross bird with a full, rounded chest. We see a lot of wheatens and blue wheatens that are shallow breasted today in the large fowl. Realize that with this outcross you may very well end up with males having a lot of hackle striping - the very thing you have been fighting the past several years. Better keep the best of your present line going alongside these project birds - just in case.
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I don\'t think it makes any difference whether you use a blue or a black to increase size
If I use a black I assume I would put him over a blue wheaten female?
Better keep the best of your present line going alongside these project birds - just in case.
Definitely! I\'d hate to lose the progress I\'ve made there!
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Makes no difference that I can see. The only thing I would not do is use a blue male on blue-wheaten females, otherwise about a fourth will be wasters (splash). If you go black to wheaten, you will still have the blue wheatens from your original line, and those can be crossed back to the new line once you have accomplished your other goals.
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Mike,
You have mentioned (and I concur) that LF Brown-Reds are on the smallish side also, could this breeding tactic be used also to increase their size? Is there any interest in an LF Blue-Red?
Greg
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Yes, there is no reason a good black could not be used to increase the size of the brown red large fowl. One would have to be careful about not losing the orange lacing on the breast of the brown reds. I have not heard anyone mention interest in a blue version of brown red, but in some breeds there is a lemon blue which is nearly the same. Modifiers were used to lighten the orange of the brown red to a light yellow, hence the name lemon blue. The dominant Bl gene alone would help to lighten the orange, but other modifiers would probably be needed as well. For the next year or two I am going to concentrate on improving color and size in my line of brown reds without an outcross. If it proves necessary after a couple of breeding seasons I may give it a try then.
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Greg,
I actually have a pen of lemon blue bantams I am working on. No chicks yet . . . starting in 3 weeks if they keep laying.
Michael
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If I use a black I assume I would put him over a blue wheaten female?
I would suggest using a wheaten male over a black female. Then use your best wheaten male over the F1 pullets.
If you start with a black male over wheaten females you could be bringing in silver (or gold) from the black even if he doesn\'t show it. By using a wheaten male over black females and then only using the pullets from that cross you will know that you have the sex linked gold (wheaten color) that you want.
A percentage of your F2 chicks should be pure \"wheatens\" (e^y/e^y) with hopefully better type and size than what you started with.
I tried a black/silver cross a few years back. I had a problem getting the silver males descended from that cross to show a good silvery white color. I think the problem was that the black male I used brought in the recessive gold color. If I do the cross again (and I may next year) I\'ll start with a silver male over a black female and then cross the F1 pullets with a silver male. That should get me where I want to go quicker and make the sex linked silver/gold gene work for me.
Of course the black female that you use should be of the best Ameraucana type available. Look for black legs on her rather than slate. Slate legs may indicate she is part birchen (E/E^R) rather than pure extended black (E/E). Maybe it doesn\'t matter, but I think there would be fewer potential problems with a E/E female.
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John, it was not sex-linked gold that caused your silvers to be brassy. Sex linked gold would have made them brown in color instead of silver. So apparently it was modifiers. Any time an extreme outcross is made like this you have the danger of bringing in unwanted modifiers. I have seen some pictures of what appear to be pretty good sized buffs. I still think the better cross is wheaten with buff. I intend to do that with my bantams next year to reinvigorate the buff line I\'m working with. That being said, I do agree that the better way to go is to use an outcross female rather than a male. The danger of course is that the female could be carrying the sex linked silver gene, which means the first male offspring would be 1/2 silver wheaten instead of regular gold wheaten. Should that occur you could discard all the males of the F-1 and just breed the F-1 females back to full blooded wheatens or blue-wheatens.
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I do agree that the better way to go is to use an outcross female rather than a male.
What are the reasons that it would be better to use a female versus a male outcross? Are you able to reach the goal faster with a female? Does it require more generations with a male but one will have fewer culls?
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silvers to be brassy
They weren\'t brassy as I recall...they just didn\'t have the silvery white that they should have. I feel it could be that they received silver from the dame and gold from the sire. Silver is dominate, but without two copies of it the color is diluted. Some unwanted modifying genes could have been there also.
I recently bought a Lakenvelder cockerel and it is obvious he carries both silver and gold. At a glance he looks to be silver in the areas that show be silver/white. He has some brown/gold coloring where the white feathers and black meet. The person that sold him to me has been getting Vorwerk colored (gold) pullets from her Lakenvelders and doesn\'t know where they are coming from. I know from that that some of her males that basically look silver also carry gold.
I still think the better cross is wheaten with buff.
I agree that using wheatens to improve buffs is the way to go, since wheaten is the foundation for buff and other genes are added to make buff.
Going the other way and trying to improve wheatens with buffs has been a project I gave up on. If wheaten plus only one other gene were required to make a buff bird then it would be easy, but because there is more than one gene it is difficult to breed them all out to get back to pure wheaten.
As stated other unwanted modifying genes may also come from the black cross.
reasons that it would be better to use a female versus a male outcross?
By using a wheaten male over black females and then only using the pullets from that cross you will know that you have the sex linked gold (wheaten color) that you want.
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I know this is a little off subject, but these pullets are the result of a blue wheaten pullet with a buff rooster. Where did the white in the tail come from Mike or John? Remember I need \"Genetic Color Terms For Dummies\". :)
Notice one got nice slate legs from daddy and the other \"crappy\" blue wheaten legs from mommy.
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By using a wheaten male over black females and then only using the pullets from that cross you will know that you have the sex linked gold (wheaten color) that you want.
Wouldn\'t Mike\'s suggestion (below) take care of this?
seek out a black or a blue male that shows some red (not silver or amber) feathers in head or hackle. Otherwise you could end up with silver wheatens instead of wheatens.
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Wouldn\'t Mike\'s suggestion (below) take care of this?
Yes.
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Where did the white in the tail come from
My guess it is from what they call the Blue (Bl) gene (that I think should be called Splash...but that\'s another subject) from the blue wheaten. Some tails could be white (splash) and some could be black, depending on what gene each chick inherited. If you had used a wheaten they should all show some black in their tails.
I prefer using wheaten, rather than blue wheatens, in crosses like this just because the black color has better contrast with the other colors you are working with than white or blue.
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Jean, the buff you used in the cross was probably carrying the Bl gene that dilutes black to blue. Your buff probably didn\'t have any black or blue feathering, so you would have no way of knowing it (Bl) was there. So your pullets ended up with two Bl genes, one from each parent, which causes splash coloration. Hence the white in the pullets tails is caused by Bl/Bl (splash).
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I would suggest using a wheaten male over a black female. Then use your best wheaten male over the F1 pullets.
I\'m considering trying both methods. Paul and Angela are sending me a black male with gold in the hackles that I plan to use over blue wheaten females. They also have a black female available. Is there any reason I shouldn\'t use a blue wheaten (versus wheaten) male over her?
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any reason I shouldn\'t use a blue wheaten
I think wheaten, blue wheaten or splash wheaten will get you where you want to go.
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I am bringing this topic back up to the top again as I am contemplating my options for improving size in my silvers and my future brown reds.
I know I want to use black birds to increase size in my silvers as I am sure they carry birchen genes already. (slate legs) But, from Michael\'s previous post I am not sure if I want to use a black cock over silver hens or vice versa. Has anyone else had the same results as Michael? I am reading online \"Genetics of The Fowl\" and it suggests that outcrossing will result in varied different sizes and I believe that mating two different varieties would be considered outcrossing in this instance.
I have put aside a large black cockerel from Paul\'s lines as he is larger than any of the other birds on my farm, hence the name \"Mongo\", for my silver project.
But, I am contemplating using wheaten to increase size in the brown reds. Am I way off base on that thought? I am afraid to use black as I don\'t want to risk adding the silver gene since brown reds are gold and the whole sex linked results of silver.
By the way any replies given should be written in \"layman\" terms as I am still muddling my way through genetics for dummies 101.
Thanks,
Jean
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increase size in the brown reds
I would use blacks for this. As you said some blacks may already be split for extended black and birchen at the e-locus. Brown red birds are birchen/birchen at the e-locus. Now keep in mind the \"birchen\" gene at the e-locus is different than the name \"birchen\" as it applies to the silver & black variety by that name. The birch and brown red varieties are genetically the same, except for one is silver were the other is gold in color. To make the silver/gold sex-linked thing work for you use a brown red cock over black hens and all the pullets will be pure for gold. If they inherit birchen at the e-locus from both parents they will be good brown reds. If the black hen used was actually split for birchen, at the e-locus, and carried gold, as opposed to silver, some of the cockerels could be pure brown reds also. The other way is to use a black cock that shows some gold (red) in his hackle or on top his head near his comb over brown red hens.
increase size in my silvers
Silvers are based on \"wildtype\", not birchen at the e-locus. If the blacks carry silver rather than gold (the sex-linked stuff) it will be a plus, so if you use blacks try to find a cock with silver (white) in his hackle or on top his head near his comb to put over silver hens. If the black cock carries gold it could be a problem and if you aren\'t sure I would go the other way and use your best silver cock over a black hen with great type and size. All the pullets from this cross will be pure for silver (the color, not variety yet). Cull all the cockerels of this F1 generation. The next year put your best silver cock over the pullets. Do the same thing again and again.
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I would agree with John, use black for both projects.
Michael