Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Ameraucana Marketplace => Topic started by: Guest on July 15, 2005, 12:07:12 AM
-
I hatched an Amer chick out of a Blue/red rooster and either a blue or white hen and it looks very pretty but I am not sure how the end result will be when he feathers out. I\'ve never had any Blue/Red chicks so he might be one.
Its defenetly is a roo, I know that much. If you can\'t tell by the pic, his neck feathers are a light powder blue.
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a37/Pheasants4ever/cutypiebody.jpg)
Anna
-
This chick is an easter egger. He will not be a recognized ameraucana color. Probably will be very attractive as an adult.
-
Thought so, although they throw the occasional good Ameraucana.
Do you call everything an easter egger that just isn\'t the right color? I got 4 adult, pure ameraucanas, but they are all different colors(white, blue, blue/red and silver) so getting something of a recognized color is hard, so everything they throw that isn\'t anything recognized is an easter egger then? I thought easter eggers are mutts with ameraucana and some other type of chicken in them, at least that is what I was told.
Hard thing with these chicks is because of their different colors/patterns its hard to give them away/put them in the freezer.
I got now 2 young cockerals in 2 different, not recognized, but beautiful color and I can\'t imagen giving them away.... (I am childish, I know) I have to in the end though, latest when one of them attacks me or they start killing eachother.
Thx
Anna
-
Do you call everything an easter egger that just isn\'t the right color?
That is a good question.
My feeling is that if you have the breed but not a recognizable variety the bird could be an AOV Ameraucana. Just like some of the varieties that members are working on, like black gold, lavender and blue silver. We wouldn\'t call them Easter Egg chickens just because they are not a recognized variety.
I would say that if a bird doesn’t meet the breed description, even if it meets a recognized variety description, it would be an Easter Egg chicken. An example would be a beautiful wheaten with willow legs or a buff with a single comb.
Many of us have Ameraucanas that carry genes for willow legs, single combs, etc., but we actively cull and select for the best when breeding.
Ameraucana chickens are still a relatively new breed. They are a work in progress and only one generation from being Easter Egg chickens.
-
That brings up some good questions!!
now i would have called the chick a blue wheaten??
I know it is not the case with everyone\'s birds, but I see very few hatchilngs that ever meet the \"standard\"
I see several that hatch with the incorect leg color, and a common flaw, even from the :pure-bred\" stock we har, was incorrect combes, many hatch with single combes, and some with rose combs, and others with non-descript combs, all off shoots to the previous breeding that makes up the breed.
Now I have asked on several occasions just what breeds go into creating the Ameraucana, and never get a direct answer. on occasion one will mention a specific rooster from another breed theu used to improve color, or some other trait, and I susspect If these geen differances are still in the gene pool, inevetabley they will continue to crop up from time to time.
So does this make any off-shoots, or imperfect birds also easter eggers??
-
Ok, let me see if I got that correctly now, the little guy I got here would be a AOV Ameraucana just because he got a not recognized color but everything else is correct(slate legs, peacomb etc), but if he had now any other faults like wrong leg color or wrong comb type it would be a Easter egger?
-
It\'s just my opinion, but from what I see of the bird in the photo it looks like it has the Standard Breed characteristics of an Ameraucana. The color/pattern isn\'t a \"recognized\" Variety, once again according the Standards. Refer to the APA and ABA \"Standards\".
I think Ralph Sturgeon said, in his book Start Where You Are With What You Have..., something about getting the breed right before worrying about the color. It looks like you have the breed right. Now with the right matings (the birds must possess the right genes) you should be able to produce a recognized variety or more.
We can debate the meaning of what an Easter Egg chicken is and I think that is a good topic. Once again, in my opinion it is a chicken that possesses the blue egg gene, but doesn\'t meet the Standard description of any breed. It is a mutt or barnyard chicken that happens to have the blue egg gene.
I end up with some every year and sell them as butcher birds - culls. Some varieties of Ameraucanas are established to the point that they breed very true and you end up with few if any culls. Other varieties still have mostly recessive genes that show up from time to time. Compensation Mating, Selective Breeding and Culling are the best solution. Trap Nesting or DNA testing is needed to find out which birds are Pure for any given gene.
Keep in mind that every chicken is related to every chicken. Some are more closely related than others, just like people. Some \"blue bloods\" need to understand that along with some poultry breeders that think their favorite breed came off the ark that way.
I cannot prove that any of my birds are Pure bred and try to refer to them as Standard bred, because I know they are.
OK, back to the question. I would say you could show him as an AOV, but usually would only suggest that you do if his color/pattern is an accepted variety in some breed. Golden Quail or Black Gold Ameraucana bantams have been shown for several years as AOV. They have the Ameraucana breed characteristics, but are not yet a \"recognized\" variety.
I wouldn\'t say they are Easter Egg chickens.
Come on don\'t just read this stuff. What do you think?
-
AOV is not a classification for entry in an ABA or APA poultry show. County fairs may have AOV classes for purposes of award distribution, but I am talking exhibition quality poultry shows, and there is a big difference. Black gold would be an example of a variety that is entered as a specific variety, but may be lumped with blue silvers, reds, etc. in an AOV class for purposes of awards. Any entry should be of a variety, recognized or not, that breeds reasonably true, i.e., the chicks look like their parents. When we start showing up with crossbred varieties every color of the rainbow, don\'t expect we will generate any respect for the breed from the exhibition poultry fancy. One of the very first items the club voted on back in 1978 was whether or not to include \"multicolor\" as a variety. The ABA advised against it, and it was voted down. This is no point in time to regress.
-
I have always heard, that type is first, if you get that down,
then you can work on the colour.
In any breed the type is priority in my opinion, that means to me
that they meet the standard, in body type, shank and foot colour,
comb, eye color, head, tail carriage, etc... The colour or variety is next, and with proper breeding, and culling out what you don\'t want or need, you can come up with what you want.....I\'m too lazy, and there are some many exceptional breeders of, in this case Ameraucana, that I think,
(for me) to start with a variety that are available, I just don\'t
like to have to cull if the variety is available. My space is limited for the birds. It would be great to be able to start with AOV and
work to what you might want to get \"standardized\".
Just some of my thinking.
-
You\'re right Mike, as I said
the bird could be an AOV Ameraucana. Just like some of the varieties that members are working on, like black gold, lavender and blue silver.
They would compete as AOV. Give the variety a name and you could show it by that name, but it would complete with the others that may be AOV (Any Other Variety or All Other Varieties).
I didn\'t and wouldn\'t suggest it be shown, unless it is a new color that you may want to have accepted.
I would really like to know what defines an Easter Egger to you (as in you all). I\'ve given my opinion. Is it just the breed characteristics or does the bird have to be a recognized variety? If so what do we call the varieties we are working on? When I cross two varieties and get multicolored birds I consider them Ameraucanas if they have the breed characteristics. I have some now that I\'ll use in a breeding project again next year.
I also have some Ameraucana/d\'Anver cross chicks. Although they have many Ameraucana characteristics I would classify them as Easter Egg chickens, but they will be the ancestors of some nice lavender Ameraucanas in the future.
-
In my opinion, the bird in question is an Easter Egger. I would expand the definition from what John said, to include unrecognized colors. By this I mean color patterns that cannot be identified as a true color variety in any other breed or cannot be recreated as the Black Gold. A bird like this should not be shown. What is it? Know one knows. Now if you had a whole barn full of the same color pattern, and could document that they breed true or are easily recreated. Then you would have something that might be called an AOV. That does not mean that an Easter Egger could not be used in an Ameraucana breeding program. Easter Eggers often have traits that are useful for developing certain traits in excepted varieties. I thing that Easter Eggers are usually closer genetically to Ameracaunas than most other breeds and may help you out more. I am going to try some Easter Egg Hens in my silver bantam project. These are for breeding only, not for show. They look like silver hens but they don\'t have the salmon breast. I am hoping that they do not have the Autosomal Red genes that give us so much problems with the silver males.
Just some thoughts.
Curtis
-
Good points Curtis.
Any others?
-
Curtis i\'m pretty sure that what you\'ll end up with will be silver males with white in the breast. on old english a weak salmon breast useually throws color in the breast of her male offspring. but the 2nd generation from them might work. Chris
-
My birds will never be at a show, so I wont have to worry about that, the closest shows are located 10 hrs + away from me.
So everything extra gets sold to the locals, of course they always ask me what is what and I can already imagen how the conversation will be if someone buys an Easter egger and asks me why this is an easter egger and not an ameraucana like its parents....... well now I know what to say, although I don\'t think that they are going to understand what I mean.
Oh well, how about we call ameraucanas like that instead of easter eggers OOAV(out of any variety)? Just an idea, I always make up new words... Around here it doesn\'t matter anyways.
Anna
-
Well at the risk of getting stones tossed at me, I will voice my own opinion on the matter.
Personaly I have found that the out-crossing some folks use to \"improve\" the breed, and or a color pattern is the biggest mistake made by \"breeders\".
I have several reason for developing my opinion, and I will attempt to explain them.
One being that traits for differant body types, feather types as well as patterns, and the biggest is egg color!!
Ourcrossing ruins the Ameraucana\'s egg solor.
Their is nothign more embarrasing that to be taking a new interested 4-Her down the Ameraucana Section to show them what a \"real\" ameraucana is..to have them see olive, tan & white eggs in the cages! :o
Now I have seen some very nice looking birds at the shows, and it seems the larger the show the more I see of the Off-Colord eggs, and variances in bird types..lets see i have seen some cute \"Buff Orpington\", Black Austraorp\", \"Black Sumetra\" \"White Sumetra\" and \"silver-Grey Dorking\", \"Ameraucanas\" in large fowl, and a lot of \"Belgan\'s\" in bantams.
A few of these actualy do lay bluish eggs, but the majority have horrible egg colors, inspite of a nice bird color.
I am very pleased with the ABC for bring into play an egg contest, as this will encourage more Ameraucana breeding as opposed to out crossing :)
But I do think that calling any \"Ameraucana\", that failes the traits, be it for leg color, beak color, eye color, foot color, feather coloring traits an easter egger is any more realistic than calling a great \"show-quality\" Ameraucana also an easter egger if it dosen\'t lay blue eggs...
Sooooo
It is just my opinion, but I think we have a LONG way to go, and need to do our best to preserve the breed, without bringing in any more out-crosses, as it is just horribly watering down the breed, making them all easter eggers?? :stare:
Yikes, I think it is high time to do some \"closed breeding\" to improve and stablize the \"breed\"
-
Some of what we say is fact, but we also give our opinions on these forums. That\'s what it is all about. We don\'t have to agree and I don\'t think anyone will through stones. We get to know each other and can learn from each other.
Your right... the eggs should be blue. Like every thing else it takes time. I know in some of my writtings and Mike\'s we have suggested that breeders only outcross as a last resort. I don\'t suggest that anyone that is not in it for the long haul do any \"breeding\". Sometimes on outcross is the only way to introduce a desired gene and that is when I do it.
-
I agree with McKee to some degree. I have seen a lot of variability in Ameraucana type, especially in the large fowl.
On the other hand, I won\'t hesitate to outcross to another breed to get a trait that I am looking for in a breeding project. I try to look for breeds that are closest to Ameraucaunas in feather type and shape ofr the outcross. ( I like Easter Eggers and Old English the best). However, a breeder has to understand that if you do an outcross, it is going to take at least eight to ten generations to get back to proper Ameraucana type, and you will have to cull a lot of birds in the process. This is not an instant gratification process. As far as egg color, I admit that I don\'t pay enough attention to egg color. I believe you have to get the body type and color right first before concentrating on the egg color. So far in the projects I have cooking I don\'t have those things right yet so they eggs are neglected. I do try to set the BLUEST eggs but this is not my highest priority yet.
Curtis
-
Now that sounds like a guy that knows what breeding is all about.
-
Amen to that. If a trait is not available within the breed, how is a breeder going to get it without going to an outside breed? The key is to select the right bird for the outcross.
I had never seen a blue ameraucana with enough of the proper lacing, so outcrossed this year to a bird that has outstanding lacing. It was a blue \"sumatra\" bantam with white feet instead of yellow. The F-1\'s all have messed up type and only 1/2 a set of muffs, but the lacing came through strong, so it must be a single dominant gene causing it. My plan is to breed these crossbreds back to pure blue ameraucana bantams, and I will wager that within two years I will have bantam blues that will \"knock your socks off.\" But outcrossing is not for everyone. My blues had excellent egg color, and I know this will set it back. Sometimes you have to make one step back in order to go two steps forward. Egg color is not that hard to breed for if you know what you are doing, so I\'m not worried about it. If all we are going to be concerned about is egg color we may as well have been satisfied with easter egg chickens and forgot about everything else.
-
Rita said outcrossing, but meant cross breeding - breeding two different breeds together. I\'m sure we all knew what she meant and even sometimes used the same term.
I need to keep my dictionary at hand.
-
Thought so, although they throw the occasional good Ameraucana.
Do you call everything an easter egger that just isn\'t the right color? I got 4 adult, pure ameraucanas, but they are all different colors(white, blue, blue/red and silver) so getting something of a recognized color is hard, so everything they throw that isn\'t anything recognized is an easter egger then? I thought easter eggers are mutts with ameraucana and some other type of chicken in them, at least that is what I was told.
Hard thing with these chicks is because of their different colors/patterns its hard to give them away/put them in the freezer.
I got now 2 young cockerals in 2 different, not recognized, but beautiful color and I can\'t imagen giving them away.... (I am childish, I know) I have to in the end though, latest when one of them attacks me or they start killing eachother.
Thx
Anna
-
Oops! Hello all- I\'m new to chickens as well as message boards, but I\'m in a similar sit. as Anna here. My \'Ameraucanas\' look very similar to the ones she has pictured on her web page. I began my flock this May after a long-awaited move to our new 10 acre home. As a kid on my grandparents farm in Tennessee, I helped feed and gather eggs for their flock (banties and Rhode Island Reds) and have been looking forward to being able to raise my own.
Eager to experiment, my husband and I ordered a variety of day old chicks from the nearest large hatchery. The Ameraucanas (both bantam and standard) were advertised as easter egg chickens, colored egg layers, not show quality, not for 4-H... etc.
So it seems I am the proud owner of mutts and easter eggers with at best a hope for a nice AOV bird.
But I am Proud! You gotta start somewhere and even the watered-down traits showing through in my mutts have got me hooked on the breed. I don\'t know if we\'ll be showing them , but I would like to keep and breed them with the eventual plan of improving my flock. We also have Embden geese, Muscovy and mallard x pekin (we think) ducks, Pearl and white helmeted guineas, Barred Rocks, Red Rock cross and sex link brown layers, silkies, cochins, white crested black polish, and even one silver duckwing Old English Game cockerel but the Ameraucanas are by far my favorites!
I\'m writing for help and advice from real breeders though, because I\'d like to do the best I can with what I have now.
The hatchery we ordered from only offers \'exotic\' breeds straight run and we\'re reaching culling time. I need to know how to determine which two roosters are the best to keep for breeding for now until I can import some better stock (maybe next year) My library system does not have a copy of the Standard, so I\'m looking on the internet, but opinions vary and there aren\'t many pictures of mixed color birds like mine.
What i\'m looking for , I guess is a short list of desirable and undesirable traits to help me choose.
Would appreciate your input...
Still learning , but enjoying my birds!
Can send photos of \'King of the Roost\' competitors if you\'d like to have a look and send me your opinions...
-
Possibly my terms are a bit confusing, but what I did mean was crossing to other breeds. Yes it is done a lot, and unfortunately all too often..with poultry breeders, more so that with cattle breeders, one thing I have noticed is most folks want that \"quick-fix\" and set about to get it at all cost.
Because I manage the ABC SHareing place, some folks get the wrong impression of me, they think I am some \"big-wig\" with the Ameraucanas. Well, I do want to appoligize to any who think that way, actually we are quite new to Ameraucanas, and have a lot to learn, but have determined to help better the breed and help make advancements.
I do tend to be very opinionated and vocal, so I do hope I do not come across as offensive, or bossy.
I really whould like to see folks make a commitment to \"close\" down their breding plans, and make improvements from withing the breed, as i feel this is the fastest way to stabalize the breed. Yes it may take a few more generations to accomplisah a desired outcome, but I honestly feel the reward will be well worth the effort!!
-
Hello Anna,
Or should I say howdy, neighbor! After seeing this picture, I went to your homepage, and lo and behold, your chickens look just like mine! Did some of your stock possibly come from Rochester Hatchery? Anyway, some are so similar in color that they could be twins. I\'ve been meaning to send you a picture of my cockerel (14 wks) because he looked similar to your chick when he was little. He only had tiny spots of red on his back when he was that size, so I expect yours will have much more red. Anyway, it\'s one more picture to compare to. Sorry it took so long, I had to learn how to resize to make it fit-- hope it works!
It seems your post has sparked a breeding debate, but has been very useful and timely to me because these are my first birds and until reading it, I had no idea about easter eggers as opposed to standard bred Ameraucanas. It has all been very informative. I\'m going to play around for now with the birds I have and see about getting some breeding stock in the spring. What are your goals with your birds? Do you know of any other Ameraucana flock keepers in our area? If there are others interested in importing stock, we should get organized together and share/ split the extra costs of bringing birds across the border. There is a lady in Enderby that sells chicks, keets, poults, and swaps and sells hatching eggs who keeps Ameraucanas I will email her too. I have emailed a couple in Ontario who have already imported stock, but am still waiting for a reply...
Anyway, ENJOY THE PICTURE!
A note to all of you members and visitors out there, a rookie like myself really looks forward to the photos you post, especially if we\'re far away and can\'t see the birds in person!
;)Wink,NUDGE!
-
If you are looking at importing I would be interested. I am in christina Lake, BC.
Have no chickens at the moment so I will be starting from scratch! :)
If any of you have any stock available I would be interested.
Kurtis
-
Is the original poster\'s pic still there? I can\'t see it....
-
If you decide to sell some of your birds contact me. I am in Christina lake, BC. Even wrong colors can be worked with if you are looking at this as a looooooong term project.