Ameraucana Breeders Club
The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club => Ameraucana Marketplace => Topic started by: Guest on December 22, 2007, 09:12:03 AM
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Hello all,
I\'m have only been a breeder of Ameraucanas a few years, I have what I feel are some nice white bantams. I love the nice tail and full body, plus the temperament of them.
I know in comparison to some other breeds Ameraucanas are rather new, but I find it rather odd that certain varieties are not in the standard. Only having 8 recognized varieties 4 of which are solid. Having learned a the basics of genetics, I see with out introducing any outside blood there could be a few more basic varieties.
We have \"Silver\" but no others from the duckwing family BBR , Blue Red and Blue silver duckwing can be created with out hurting type.
As well in the birchen family on the Brown Red is in the standard, and like wise Lemon Blue, Birchen, and Silver Blue birchen are just waiting to be standardized.
I know that all you breeders out there know all this and I\'m sure I\'m not the first to ask, but is any efforts being made to add these to the standard?
Also I have heard some breeders claim \"if it is not in the standard it is a mutt\" Do the rest of you Ameraucana enthusiasts feel this same way?
I would love to see these become standard plus start getting some patterns in there too. Is anyone working on special projects like that? I just want to see were the breed or breeders are headed.
thanx glen
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Actually, Glen, the Ameraucana Breeders Club has taken an official position on what qualifies as an Ameraucana, and it is NOT \"a mutt unless recognized by the standards.\" I believe the correct answer is found under the FAQ link on this website.
It says that to be considered an Ameraucana, a variety must breed true to form and color at least 50 % of the time. This definition accommodates the various varieties that need the dominant blue (Bl) gene to manifest themselves. If you look through the different threads on this forum, you will see that different breeders have or are working on such varieties as black gold, blue gold, silver blue (but not blue silver birchen), splash, birchen, and perhaps a few others. In the meantime, some of our existing recognized varieties in large fowl and bantam need a lot of work. There are not all that many of us, and some have chosen to perfect what we already have rather than embark on new breeding projects. I hope this answers your questions, as we certainly don\'t want to discourage anyone from creating or perfecting new varieties. The latter has proven much more of a challenge than the former. Good luck to you - and Merry Christmas.
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some have chosen to perfect what we already have rather than embark on new breeding projects
That was my stance for a couple decades. I have since helped develop the lavender variety and yes it could be used with wheaten to create lavender wheaten quite easily. Personally unless a new variety is going to help promote the breed I don\'t see any reason to develop it. As Mike said many of our recognised varieties still need a lot of work. Many of the 16 recognized varieties of Ameraucana were accepted in the \"Standard\" before they were developed.
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Mike, thanx for your quick response. I appreciate your insight and agree that too many projects will cause all to suffer. In contrast thou, I feel to improve any variety one needs options to work with. To improve silver, other varieties of the duckwing family would be beneficial, keeping the e-loci the same. As well as with the brown red family. It may be necessary to expand the breed to improve upon it. The more varieties that are available the more breeders it will attract. I\'m not suggesting everyone go running off in different directions to create their very own varieties, just to get some of the more basics varieties up to an excepted and agreeable standard. And some day into the ABA and APA standards.
What I was hoping for when I started this thread was some discussion and pictures of other breeders projects.
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Actually, there are only three solid colors in the standard, those being white, black, and buff. The parti-colors are brown red, wheaten, blue wheaten, silver, and blue. The blue we have in the standard should have dark lacing on a lighter blue base, and that is one of the varieties I am working to improve. We still see a lot of self blues (not to be confused with lavender) meaning blues without lacing but they are not technically correct.
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Mike, thanks for correcting my misunderstandings. I could imagine people discussing if blue is solid or not till the internet has a melt down, I never thought of it as a parti-color, I do agree that one that is laced is a much nicer specimen.
I saw on an earlier post that you had thrown a birchen cockerel are you going to continue that line?
I personally enjoy working with the duckwing family and would like to get started with silvers and someday have the full array of that family BBred, Blue red, and maybe Crele.
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B.B.Red and blue red are certainly attainable, though the males would look an awfully lot like wheaten and blue wheaten males. It might be easier to go for light brown and blue light brown if using the silvers to get there, as those males would have the hackle striping like silvers do. Plus they would stand out differently in the show room. Crele could be a problem, however, as I believe the sex linked barring gene is an inhibitor of dermal melanin. Ameraucanas must be white skinned and dark shanked, so dermal melanin is needed to produce the dark shanks. A few members were working with large fowl barreds a few years back, but I don\'t think they were able to get any with the dark legs and toes.
Now to answer your question, I do plan to use the birchen cockerel as he is out of the black hen that took Best of Breed at our national meet in 2004. Turns out she carries the sex-linked silver (S) gene. He will be mated to a few brown red half sisters. This mating will throw about half pure birchen and half pure brown red females, about half pure brown red males, and half birchen males that are split for (S) and sex linked gold (s) like their sire. I should be able to start a birchen line of bantams from that start. According to Proverbs 16:9, \"The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps,\" so we\'ll see. Merry Christmas.
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I have always been attracted to the colorful Easter Eggers. They are why I chose to concentrate my serious efforts on the Ameraucana - because of the Easter Eggers I had met and enjoyed. Creative people will always seek new colors and perfectionists will always try to improve. I think the breed needs both groups desperately. Many people do both.
I think encouraging more varieties will encourage new folks to join up to work on them. There are so many more Easter Egger owners than Ameraucana owners. I think we need to encourage them by appreciating (not necessarily accepting) their birds and encouraging them to breed up. I think when we tell someone to start over with \"pure\" Ameraucanas, it knocks the wind out of their sails.
We love to denounce Easter Eggers as \"mutts\". In reality, so were our \"pure\" birds once. So, next time someone asks \"What kind of Americana is this?\" why don\'t we answer, \"Looks like an Easter Egger similiar to _____ variety. Why don\'t you browse our website join us? I\'ve got a rooster to sell you!\"
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Since we are talking varieties here, I would personally love to see a Mille Fleur and a Porcelaine developed. I\'m considering beginning a project of Milles myself, just not sure I have the time or resources to accompish that. And yes, it would be an ongoing project. The Mille color pattern, when correct, is stunning, and I think it would serve to generate even more interest in the breed, but I think the real interest will always be in the colored eggs, regardless of feather pattern.
So that being said, I would like any advice regarding how to start such a project, but on a small (very small) scale.
I was thinking the first step would be to cross a Mille D\' Uccle male over Buff Ameraucana females. I\'m thinking the feather legs, vulture hocks, and single comb could all be bred out in about four generations, is that a realistic goal? As far as conformation (body type) they seem to be very similar to Ameraucanas, any opinions on this?
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kacres,
Go to the feathersite and see if you can find the same color in a Belgium d\'Anver. Could be less work creating your goal. HS
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Wouldn\'t the Rose and Pea combs be fighting for dominance? That was my original thought process on not using d\' Anvers, but more info on rose vs pea comb dominance would be appreciated.
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ksacres,
Go to search here and look up Lavender, I believe John already answered that question. If not maybe John will help you with that question. He has a lot of experiences with that cross. HS
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I did the search and found what I thought happens, the combs-pea and rose-are codominant, and make a different kind of comb(walnut). If I use the d\' Uccle, I only have two comb types, pea and single, if I use a d\' Anver, I have three to contend with. Project is still in the thought process stage though, I don\'t have any of the base birds I would need. I do have the base birds I would need to start a Porcelain project. Hmmm...
I\'m working on Lavenders too, I have the first generation one pullet and one cockeral that are about three months old right now (I hatched out six cockerals and ONE pullet from several different hatches). I also got a Bl cockeral from that mating-but that\'s another story. I started with REALLY poor quality OE, and that helped with the tail set since the OE had a poor (for OE) tail set. They also had slate legs. And since my hens were homozygous for pea combs, all the offspring have pea combs, though they are hiding the recessive single combs. My second generation will be a mess! And with only one breeding pair, it takes a LOT longer!
I have to keep my projects small as I don\'t have a lot of resources for feeding 100 birds! And I don\'t have a steady outlet for cull chicks. Wish I still lived in Indiana, then I could just take them to a swap or an auction!
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combs-pea and rose-are codominant, and make a different kind of comb(walnut).
Stubs from the d\'Uccle\'s feathered legs may be more of a problem to breed out than the rose comb of a d\'Anver. Either way I think those varieties are based on brown (e^b) and none of the Ameraucana varieties are. So far we have Ameraucana varieties based on the E-locus genes of extended black, birchen, wild type and wheaten. You would be creating one based on brown and I haven\'t studied it, but don\'t know of any reason why it shouldn\'t work. If I were to create a variety based on that E-locus gene it would be partridge just because I like it.
I have enough projects going on, but would suggest crossing a porcelain d\'Anver or d\'Uccle to a black Ameraucana. Second choice would be crossing a millie fleur d\'Anver or d\'Uccle to a lavender Ameraucana. Mate the F1 generation birds together and select from there. Once again the trick is to hatch as many as you can, especially of the F2 generation.
What say you experts?
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Why would/might black be better? I should say that I\'m copying a breeder that has developed a nice (very nice) strain of Mille Fleur Cochin Bantams and adapting it to-in theory-create Mille Ameraucanas. His base stock was Mille d\' Uccles and Buff Cochins. But I know every breed is different, maybe there are different things involved...
I\'m anticipating this being an ongoing project, which is fine, I need projects to keep my going.
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Kelli,
Go to the top of the forum page and do a search on \"Millie Fleur.\" You might be able to find previous posts where people are already working on developing Millie Fleur Ameraucana. Just my two cents, I would advise against using fleather legged birds in your breeding project.
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The only other relevant post I could find was talking of using Speckled Sussex, but I don\'t have access to any Sussex bantams, and the Speckled Sussex are not the exact pattern I\'m looking for. I will see if I can find some Mille patterned d\' Anvers, but there just aren\'t a lot of people that have them, and if they do have them, it always seems they are Quail-that\'s not what I\'m looking for.
I know someone who will sell me d\' Uccle eggs in a few months. I agree that breeding out feathered legs will be difficult, but at least you can see it and know which birds are a problem. I really don\'t want to order some hatchery chicks just to get the mille color. So many choices.
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From what I\'ve read in F.P. Jeffery\'s book on Old english, Mille Fleur is based on Wheaten and Buff is also based on wheaten. So it sounds as if a Wheaten or Buff Ameraucana may be a good place to start.
According to geneticists the basic lay out for a Mille Fleur is Wheaten with Columbian (Co) and mottling (mo) genes which you need two of each.
The buff is Wheaten w/ Co and Db (Columbian and restrictor of black or sometimes called dark brown because of the down color).
I haven\'t worked with Mille Fleur yet but have been considering it in one of my project pens.
If you bred your buff on to a mille fleur your F1s bred to each other could throw something close to what you are looking for, you would have to breed out the Db and any other unwanted traits.
If you breed a wheaten instead of a buff then you wouldn\'t have to bread out the Db, but your F1s would have only one dose of Co and mo.
You can get the mottling gene from a spangled or mottled bird, but that may add extra unwanted traits or E loci.
I may be all wrong and some mille fleurs may be based on a different E loci as well as the Ameraucana Buff may not be Wheaten based.
I would try to stay away from any feather footed birds. We had what looked like a nice blue wheaten cock we picked up at a swap meet but most of his offspring had stubs on the legs. After the first year we never used him or any of his decedents.
I just realized I had put too much thought in to this post.
glen
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On pages 193 and 198 of Jeffrey\'s Bantam Chickens he lists the proposed genotype for mille fleur and porcelain based on e^b, but the website below claims mille fleur and porcelain can be based on e+, e^b or e^Wh. If so I would start with a wheaten Ameraucana as Glen said.
http://home.ezweb.com.au/~kazballea/belgians/lowgraphic.htm#genotypes
Gold (s/s) varieties based on e+ or eb or eWh alleles, with Columbian
Millefleur: e+/e+ s/s Ig/Ig Co/Co mo/mo Lav/Lav bl/bl Rb/Rb i/ i
Porcelaine: e+/e+ s/s Ig/Ig Co/Co mo/mo lav/lav bl/bl Rb/Rb i/ i
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I have one Wheaten hen and one Blue Wheaten hen, at least that saves me from having to buy both sides of the base stock. Everyone seems to be saying stay away from the feathered legs, so that leaves pretty much a d\' Anver or Old English. So I will begin my search, hopefully I can find something locally.
Thank you Glen for putting \"too much thought\" into your post , it is appreciated. Can you explain a little more about the Db gene? I\'m not familiar with it.
John, thank you for responding, but that is way to technical for me! I really don\'t know what e+, or e^b means. And what exactly is a locus? I\'ve been trying to understand, but I can\'t seem to get past the most basic of genetics, squares I understand, probability I understand, but the rest of it???
So if I use the Blue Wheaten hen, I can use the blues to go into a Blue Mille program and the regulars in the original program, it shouldn\'t change anything else right?
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Some of you may be interested in a new book called An Introduction to Color Forms of the Domestic Fowl by Brian Reeder published in 2006 by AuthorHouse.
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what exactly is a locus
That just means the location of a gene. The \"E\" locus is the location of the \"background\" gene of a chicken. It is the foundation that you start with to build a variety.
Note that although \"wheaten\" is the name of a variety it is also the name of an E-locus gene. \"Birchen\" can also refer to a color variety or an E-locus gene. So, these can be confusing.
In the latest ABC Handbook Mike Gilbert has an article that should be helpful.
The following website can be a real help:
http://marsa_sellers.tripod.com/geneticspages/page0.html
To ‘construct’ a chicken having a particular color scheme, one begins with the ‘background’ or the E-locus gene(s). The other color and (secondary) pattern genes essentially modify this ‘background’.
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Thank you for that reference site. I bookmarked that and the last one. I\'m learning a lot here. This is my new plan:
Mille d\' Anver or Mille/Spangled Old Engish (stay away from the feathered legs LOL)
over
Wheaten/Blue Wheaten(already have) and Buff (if I get any) Ameraucanas
I may try breeding different combinations in pairs if I can find enough breeders and space to start with. I only have three empty cages and they only hold pairs. The first bird sale in this area isn\'t until May, so hopefully I can find a few adult birds and get started right away. I would hate to have to start with chicks that late, I want to start my project NOW!
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and Buff
I would follow Glens advice and not use buff if you don\'t have to.
The guy that made the cross with Cochins probably used buff Cochins because they were the closest variety to wheaten available. Maybe ask for his advise about using wheaten instead of buff.
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Good idea, I will try to email him and see what he says about it. I don\'t know him personally, he just had his information about how he made them posted.
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Not to throw a wet blanket over the mottled project, but it is my understanding the mottling gene (mo) inhibits dermal melanin, which is necessary for slate leg color. Maybe someone can either verify this or provide more accurate information?
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I know that barring is an inhibitor, but have not heard that about mottling. There are several pictures of d\' Anvers both mottled and Mille patterned that appear to have slate legs. Pictures don\'t always show the truth though.
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inhibits dermal melanin
According to Marsa_Sellers website, referenced above, mo \"dilutes epidermal melanin\".
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John, right you are. Mottling is listed in two different places in Sellers gene tables, one says the epidermal melanin is diluted, the other doesn\'t say one way or the other. And I did find mottled D\'Anvers on the Feathersite website.
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I cannot help, but enter into this discussion. For those who do not know the history of the acceptance of Ameraucana by the ABA and APA I suggest reading the history at the following link on the club website.
http://www.ameraucana.org/history.html
I actually understand both sides of this discussion. Before heading anywhere on a new variety one needs to know the Ameraucana standard. One of the limiting factors, as Mike Gilbert stated, is the slate leg requirement.
I have worked for several years with barred birds after discovering a cuckoo Maran hen with black legs on breeding her offspring to black Ameraucana. The best I have so far is what resembles the \"blue shading\" some of the buff and wheaten large fowl Ameraucana have for slate legs. I will try to snap a picture tomorrow and post one.
I too lament that there are no varieties to complement silver and brown red, I also believe that there needs to be something special about the variety that complements silver and brown red. As the lavender gene stablizes there may be some oppertunities for development of a variety that has staying power that will complement the silver and brown red pens. I have been messing with lemon blue for the brown red, but I have nothing to show for it currently. I do like the blue silver cock I have, but a lot of folks do not like the blue gene. Maybe lavender silver would take off? Dun silver?There are a few black tailed red around in the bantam size, but very few are shown. The key is for the folks who are interested in new varieties to work with others who are interested and show the birds. I will put the black gold forward as an example . . . there are a few folks working on them, but they are tough to breed and haven\'t really caught on.
I encourage folks to try to create varieties they are interested in to complement what exists in the standards already or create something new. One must however realize there are several varieties in desperate need of people to keep them. With the last club membership renewal I have been collecting a census of what varieties club members have and non-standard varieties that are under development. While the data is incomplete, it is a bleak picture for several of the varieties. I hope to report out in the spring or summer bulletin to give members an idea of what the population of Ameraucana look like.
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There are a few black tailed red around in the bantam size
Jim Tuckwood has some nice looking reds. I believe Johnny Parks is also working on reds, but solid red birds without any black in thier tails. So, there are really two red varieties in development from what I understand.
New varieties being worked on in bantam and/or LF:
---updated list, 12/29/07 12:05 ET---
lavender
black gold
blue gold
black silver
birchen
splash
splash wheaten
red
red pyle
???
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John, In my breeding projects I am working with bantam Red Pyle, Birchen, and Blacksilver-(like Blackgold... but with lacing in silver and black). I am not working with developing a solid red variety.
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The nonstandard bantam varieties I am working with are black gold and birchen. Lyne in California is working on black gold and blue gold. Not sure what silver gold is??
Both black gold and birchen are natural adjuncts to brown red, as all three are based on the birchen gene at the e-locus.
Birchen (the color) is just a silver version of brown red. Black gold is basically an extremely over colored brown red, complete with shafting and body lacing, and red diluters.
I have found brown red to be quite variable in color, so it stands to reason that black gold and birchen could be expected to be variable in their expression as well.
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Mike said
I have found brown red to be quite variable in color, so it stands to reason that black gold and birchen could be expected to be variable in their expression as well.
I to have found some Birchen variations too...some more lacing, some not so much. What then will define the fine lines between an overly laced brown red or overly laced birchen, in comparison to a laced blackgold or laced blacksilver. I am not too keen on genetics but are we playing around with different color variations in the same bird.
Johnny
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Not sure what silver gold is??
I meant black silver, but my fingers didn\'t type what my brain had in mind. ;)
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Johnny,
In brown red and birchen the lacing should be restricted to the upper half of the breast. Shafting in these two varieties is considered a fault. With the black golds and black silvers, the lacing should extend over the entire breast, the body, all the way back to the tail. Even the tail and wings should show some lacing preferably. Shafting is required also. So we are working with two extremes in color. Same e-locus on all, but unknown modifiers will determine the variety. Does that help?
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Yes, that does help. I have to keep in mind the two extremes that we are working to achieve. Thanks, Johnny
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Is it the Db gene added to brown reds that give it the desired look?
Johnny, are your Red Pyle Wheaten based or BBred? Also does dominate white affect leg color? Nice looking birds.