Ameraucanas, EE\'s, Judges, & Shows

[Tailfeathers]

I was wondering how many of you have entered birds in an APA sanctioned show and found that not only was an EE entered as well, but it was not DQ\'d and may have even won an award?

Also, along the same lines, have y\'all run into many judges that don\'t seem to know the difference between a standard Ameraucana and an EE?

I bring this up because I entered a Wheaten and a Blue Wheaten pair last Saturday at the Cascade Spring Show.  Mike got it scheduled as an ABC Meet.  Unfortunately there weren\'t enough Ameraucanas there to make a difference or matter for anything but, had there been, the judges were supposed to award accordingly.  However, in addition to my four birds there was an obvious EE listed as a \"Buff Ameraucana\".  

The bird was anything but a Buff and, as I said, it was an obvious EE.  The bird was entered by a \"Junior\".  So I talked with two different judges and without wanting to appear as complaining just asked, \"Did you not DQ this bird because it was a Junior Exhibitor?\"  

Having talked with them both at length, I could tell pretty quickly that one of them for sure and possibly both didn\'t even know that it was an EE.  I\'m not sure either of them truly understands what a standard Ameraucana is.  

When I mentioned to the first one that the bird was obviously an Easter Egger, he got a little upset and said, \"I don\'t care if it lays Easter Eggs or Christmas eggs, I would have just marked it down for not being a Buff as it was marked to be.\"

This is the second time in less than a year that I\'ve experienced this.  Another obvious EE was given BB at the Evergreen State Fair last year.  So anyways, I was wondering what y\'alls experiences have been and whether or not you\'ve encountered such things.  

Check out this comment from an email I just received.  This guy has been judging poultry for 9 years in Canada!  

He says, \"From what I\'ve seen the Ameraucanas are not real popular at the Shows I\'ve been at.  There\'s only a couple of breeders out this way and they didn\'t show very many.  Most Judges look past them at Shows because they\'re not sure about Judging them.  I\'ve never seen any at the Royal when I was up there.  It seems the Canadians are more into the old Standard breeds.\"

Maybe his statement \"Most Judges look past them at Shows because they\'re not sure about Judging them.\" answers my question?  Your thoughts?

God Bless,

[bryngyld]

I\'ve only shown once - at Stockton, CA.  There were some wheatens that were not wheaten and they were DQed.

[Tailfeathers]

Just got another comment from the same judge that I thought I\'d pass along as y\'all would probably find interesting.  

He says, \"What you are seeing is what happens all over the Country.  That\'s why lot\'s of times you see the same breeds on Champion Road all the time.  There\'s way to many Judges that know a few breeds real well and allot of the rarer ones that you don\'t see to often not very well at all.  It\'s sad to say that it happens but it does.  Just like Parti colored birds.  The more difficult the color pattern, the less chance you\'ll see them go any farther than they\'re class.\"

So what do y\'all think of that?

That’s exactly what one judge told me last December at the WFF Show.  That if I wanted to get a bird on Champion Row, I was gonna have to go with a solid black or white.  He said that is because the multi-colored (like my Blue Wheatens) are just too hard to judge.  I suppose that’s understandable but what about those of us who are working hard at “perfecting” the specific variety?

By those comments, it’s possible that I could actually have the perfect APA SOP bird (or very close to it) and nobody would ever know.  I doubt that I’ll ever actually do that but it’s still a little disappointing to know that my birds aren’t being given a real chance.  

Nonetheless, I chose the WBS Ameraucanas because there are a lot of challenges still to be overcome with the breed so working on them is what I’m really after anyways.

[John]

The more difficult the color pattern, the less chance you\'ll see them go any farther than they\'re class

I believe that is true mostly because there is more to perfect than that they are more difficult to judge.  If you get a perfect wheaten it will go to championship row, but it\'s easier to get a perfect black or white bird.  Buff is very difficult also.  It isn\'t easy to get an even shade of buff.
Ignorance on the part of judges, especially the older ones, is still a problem.  Many breeds are also more popular in some regions than others, so judges from some regions just don\'t see Ameraucanas on a regular basis.  Here in the midwest Ameraucanas are quite common and the judges generally do much better than 20 years ago.

[bantamhill]

When I first showing in the Missouri area I had this same reaction from the judges and was quite distressed. Just four short years later I had one of the most critical judges I had experienced place one of my silver LF Ameraucana as Champion AOSB at a 2,500+ bird show in the area in a class full of beautiful Sumatra and Moderns. I was stunned, but in hindsight I see that both of us rose to the challenge . . . I showed more Ameraucana of better quality and the judge had learned the breed.

One tip that I would share that was passed along to me is that if you are introducing to an area a breed/variety that is not seen much, show a large number of the breed/variety when you show and include your very best birds along with birds that are not quite as good. It has been suggested to me that 8-10 is a good number to start with of a breed/variety.

So for example with your blue wheaten I would suggest showing your best and a few that have some points that are weaker. For instance, if your best cockerel has clean hackles, then have one that does not for the judge to compare the best bird to. If you have hens with nice blue tails and one that isn\'t as good, then include the weaker in the show so that the judge can see the difference. With all of that said, I am assuming all the birds are in good condition.

Here in the Missouri area I try to take my cue from the Old English folks who almost always bring 8-10 birds of each variety. While, very rarely in the past have I had that many Ameraucana of any variety in show condition, after eliminating some varieties this year I plan to show larger groups of the varieties I have left.

Just my two cents!

Michael

[Tailfeathers]

Michael, that is an excellent suggestion.  I will take that onboard as very wise counsel.  

In that same spirit, I am thinking it might be a good idea to do more of what I did with one of the judges at this last show.  After the judging was all said and done, I asked him to really look my birds over and give me a really hard critique of them so I could have a better idea of what I needed to focus my work on.  

He seemed pleased to do that for me and we had a very nice, long conversation about my birds and my Blue Wheaten Cockerel (soon to be rooster) in particular.  

I am thinking that might also be a good way to get the Ameraucana and their standard varieties more exposure and perhaps even motivate the judges to do more research on their own for the next time they judge.

God Bless,

[Mike Gilbert]

Both the last two posts contained excellent ideas.    It really does pay to talk with the judges (nicely) and also to show a lot of birds.   It forces the judges to actually think about what they are doing and the good ones may even go to the standard if they are not sure about certain points.    

[Guest]

Michael & R.E. -- Very helpful suggestions!

My experiences:
The first EE I showed was classed 2nd place quality at a county fair. When I later took 3 EEs to an APA-sanctioned show, they were DQ\'d, and I learned more about true Ameraucanas.
When I took true Blacks & Blues to the fair the next year, an EE (willow legs) with splash wheaten coloring was placed BB over my Ameraucanas.
A particular EE tagged as a \"Golden Ameraucana\" has been placed BB (with no other class entries) in the Junior division of the APA-sanctioned show I go to for the last 3 shows in a row!!! I think this is appalling. Hmm--As I think about it, maybe club members, rather than actual judges, are judging the Junior division??
Also, I\'ve spoken with 1 judge about coloring on my Wheaten hens, and he did not know that their color does not need to be as dark as that of Wheaten Old English Game hens. I\'d bet most judges are unaware of that.

[John]

maybe club members, rather than actual judges, are judging the Junior division??

This is something that happens quite often and is the rule more than the exception at some shows.  
If the juniors are paying the same entry fee for an APA and/or ABA sanctioned meet their birds should be judged by a licensed judge in my humble opinion.  One option is to not have seperate \"Junior Shows\".  This way all entries are in the Open show and and get judged by the real judges.  If you want special awards for the junior exhibitors you then have someone go thru and just judge all junior birds.
I don\'t have a problem with a non-licensed judge judging for \"specials\" that have nothing to do with the APA or ABA.  These specials are wins or awards that are offered by individuals or breed clubs and the results aren\'t sent to the APA or ABA.  

[Mike Gilbert]

Also, I\'ve spoken with 1 judge about coloring on my Wheaten hens, and he did not know that their color does not need to be as dark as that of Wheaten Old English Game hens. I\'d bet most judges are unaware of that.

Not only does the female wheaten not need to be as dark as O.E., but according to the standard they should not.  The A.P.A. standard clearly states  \"Except lighter shades in females to be preferred.\"  (page 194, 1998 edition of American Standard of Perfection)   It would be handy to have the written standard available when talking with these judges.  Bantam Standard is even more clear, quote, \"except light creamy females which provide the greatest contrast between male and female are to be preferred.\"  

[Paul]

We have had many experiences showing the past 10 years.  Most of the judges DQ the EEL, but a few have placed them.

The multi-colored birds are much more difficult to work with than the solid colors, but they can and have been BB.  Several years ago we had a wheaten cockerel win BB at the Claremore, OK show.

About 9 years ago I had a well known highly respected judge tell me \"If you had told me 10 years ago, there would come a time, that you will sweat blood while judging a black Ameraucana pullet class,  I would have laughed.\"  Robbie Lindsay won the class and Champion AOSB while we had the reserve.  We have had three judges from California to tell us, that we have the best black Ameraucanas that they have ever seen.

After 10 years of selling day old chicks, across the US, we sold our first box of chicks, to a poultry judge on the West Coast, two weeks ago.

Many judges are becoming more knowledgeable about Ameraucanas each year.  Hold on, and enjoy the poultry hobby.

Paul Smith

[Jean]

After 10 years of selling day old chicks, across the US, we sold our first box of chicks, to a poultry judge on the West Coast, two weeks ago.Paul Smith

Just wondering if that was Jim Adkins?  

He has requested some buffs from me....  B)

[Paul]

Yes, Jim Adkins purchased chicks from us.