Author Topic: Lavender breeding  (Read 32926 times)

Jean

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Lavender breeding
« on: October 22, 2009, 11:37:15 AM »
Quote from: verycherry
Uh-oh, now I feel a little guilty that the three blacks I hatched from Jean\'s eggs are all females!  They look a lot like mine, but I do like the slate leg color on yours better.  I wonder if the leg color is darker on mine because they carry Lavender???  Anyway, VERY handsome boy.....good luck at the show!


The lavender splits would have black legs.
Jean

John

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Lavender breeding
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2009, 02:00:33 PM »
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The lavender splits would have black legs.

Jean has selected for slate legs in her LF blacks, so they are based on Birchen (E-locus).  I always liked the looks of slate over black on blacks, but selected against gold/silver in the hackles of the males (over many years).  This eliminated most or all of the Birchen in my line, which leaves me with blacks with black legs/shanks, based on Extended (E-locus).  I would suggest (and assume Jean would agree) that it is better to use blacks based on Extended to cross with lavender and whites (when a cross is needed).  

verycherry

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Lavender breeding
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2009, 05:52:19 PM »
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Jean has selected for slate legs in her LF blacks, so they are based on Birchen (E-locus).  I always liked the looks of slate over black on blacks, but selected against gold/silver in the hackles of the males (over many years).  This eliminated most or all of the Birchen in my line, which leaves me with blacks with black legs/shanks, based on Extended (E-locus).  I would suggest (and assume Jean would agree) that it is better to use blacks based on Extended to cross with lavender and whites (when a cross is needed).


Ok, so there would be no good sense in me getting some of her slated legged blacks to cross with your Lavenders boys.  Glad you let me know!

No biggie, they are still very beautiful with the darker legs.  Here is a pic of one of them.

John, I\'m 99% sure I have 3 pretty little pullets and 3 cockerels from your B/L split eggs.  I\'m keeping one of those boys in addition to the 2 Lavender boys, but I\'ll be looking for homes for the other two boys if anyone hears of anyone looking for one down my way.  They are especially good natured boys.

(turned out only 1 of the 6 was a male)




John

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Lavender breeding
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2009, 06:42:05 PM »
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slated legged blacks to cross with your Lavenders boys

If you are working toward lavender I would use black legged blacks, if available and if a cross is needed.

Mike Gilbert

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Lavender breeding
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2009, 07:03:52 PM »
E, extended black, does not necessarily make an all black bird either.   It takes other unknown melanizers as well.  We have all seen black legged males with silver or gold in the hackle.  So I guess I\'m not understanding why the same melanizers that make an E bird all black does not work on E>R birchen?   Explanation?   Or am I missing the point as to why E based birds must be used to make lavender?

John

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Lavender breeding
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2009, 08:21:10 PM »
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why the same melanizers that make an E bird all black does not work on E>R birchen?

Maybe the same is required, but perhaps more (others) are required to make an E^R all black.  
From: http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html#gen_mut_elocus
 
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•E (Extended Black) –black/cream day-old chicks, adults predominantly black, but may have some pheomelanin (silver or gold) areas in hackles.
•ER (Birchen)- black/cream day-old chicks, adults predominantly black, but may have more pheomelanin (silver or gold) areas in hackles, wing bows, etc.


I believe it to be true E/E blacks \"may have some\" silver/gold in their hackles, but E^R/E^R blacks \"may have more\".

It seems the black cockerels that developed gold/silver in their hackles as they matured were the slate legged birds.  I believe that although I (we) tried to develop blacks based on E, E^R has also been involved and the slate legged blacks are E^R/E^R.  Australops were used to develop the blacks and they are supposed to be E/E.
My guess is that if E produces a more solid black bird then lavender, which dilutes black and red, on E/E would produce a more even colored bird.  Lavender males often turn yellowish as they mature, especially in the hackle area.  If the bird carries gold (red) it may show more on a E^R bird and be diluted to that yellowish, buff, straw color.  Males that carry silver (as you would agree) are better suited, but I think a bird that doesn\'t let any gold/silver leak (to be diluted by lavender) would be a more even colored bird.
It\'s just my thoughts and I hope it makes some sense.

Mike Gilbert

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Lavender breeding
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2009, 10:39:17 PM »
That helps me understand the thought process, thanks John.
It seems to me that lavenders, like blacks, could be produced on the birchen e-locus, but it would be more difficult.  Lavenders should have silver, while blacks should have gold, to obtain the best color.   The same is true of blues in my opinion.

John

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Lavender breeding
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2009, 08:16:46 PM »
I bought some bantam lavenders a couple weeks ago from a lady that started with birds from me 2 1/2 years ago.  This one cockerel, that was hatched in July, has developed a buff/gold pattern in his shoulders.  I\'ve never seen this before in my lavenders and it isn\'t the same as the overall yellowish color that appears on many cocks as they age.  I\'m assuming he inherited eb or some other e-lous gene from both parents for this pattern to manifest itself like this.

Mike Gilbert

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Lavender breeding
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2009, 09:52:11 PM »
My guess would be something got crossed in, bringing in some type of autosomal red, or perhaps this bird is split for E extended black  and e wild type.   Lavender dilutes red as well as black, correct?

Jean

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Lavender breeding
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2009, 09:55:46 PM »
I think that is red diluted to gold because of the lavender gene.  \"Porcelain\"

ETA: Cull him......  :(
Jean

grisaboy

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Lavender breeding
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2009, 08:26:40 AM »
Quote from: John

I believe it to be true E/E blacks \"may have some\" silver/gold in their hackles, but E^R/E^R blacks \"may have more\".


I believe that both E/E blacks and E>r/E>r blacks are black because of recessive melanizers. Fred Jeffreys called this recessive black.  This has not been very well researched and there are a lot of theories being proposed about melanizers and their role in various color patterns. I suspect that there are more than one set of melanizer genes and that the melanizers that make an E/E bird black may not be the same set that make an E>R/E>R bird black.
If you have a black bird with slate legs (E>R?) and cross with a black bird with black legs, you could very well get all black birds.  If you get birds with some silver or gold leakage, you should breed them back to their parents to pick up the recessive black melanizers.  You can get all black birds back in 2 generations and hopefully keep the slate leg color. Because of the way recessive genes work, you will also get more with the silver/gold leakage.  Only about 1/4 will be all black.  In addition, the silver/gold is not as apparent in the hens, that is why it keeps popping up in future generations.

I am not convinced of the link between E>R and slate colored legs.  I raised black Old English bantams for several years.  They were confirmed E>R birds and they always had black leg color.  

Curtis

Mike Gilbert

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Lavender breeding
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2009, 09:25:39 AM »
Quote from: grisaboy
Quote from: John

I believe it to be true E/E blacks \"may have some\" silver/gold in their hackles, but E^R/E^R blacks \"may have more\".


I believe that both E/E blacks and E>r/E>r blacks are black because of recessive melanizers. Fred Jeffreys called this recessive black. . . .  I suspect that there are more than one set of melanizer genes and that the melanizers that make an E/E bird black may not be the same set that make an E>R/E>R bird black.
If you have a black bird with slate legs (E>R?) and cross with a black bird with black legs, you could very well get all black birds.  If you get birds with some silver or gold leakage, you should breed them back to their parents to pick up the recessive black melanizers.  You can get all black birds back in 2 generations and hopefully keep the slate leg color. Because of the way recessive genes work, you will also get more with the silver/gold leakage.  Only about 1/4 will be all black.  That would be assuming you are only missing one set of recessive melanizers.  There could be more than one.

I am not convinced of the relationship between E>R and slate legs.   Nor am I.   Thanks for sharing Curtis.

Curtis

John

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Lavender breeding
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2009, 11:01:06 AM »
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I\'m assuming he inherited eb

I meant ER.  I have eb on the brain thinking about the partridge thread.  

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ETA:

I want and appreciate the ideas and input.  All sound reasonable, except Jean\'s \"ETA\".  I don\'t see what Extra Terrestrial Aliens would have to do with it.

John

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Lavender breeding
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2009, 07:04:52 PM »
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Lavender dilutes red as well as black
http://kippenjungle.nl/Overzicht.htm#pluginTree
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Lavender.
Recessive, Dilutes black patterns to lavender color.
Dilutes gold to isabell.

Isabella = 91 Dark Grayish Yellow 3.8y 5.9 4.0 #A47C45  (Palomino)
Using the Kip Calculator, E with any other e-locus allele produces a solid lavender bird.  
http://kippenjungle.nl/kruising.html

John

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Lavender breeding
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2010, 06:03:08 PM »
FYI, here is a photo of some LF lavenders.  They\'ll be a year old around April.