Author Topic: Working with an outside breed.  (Read 3796 times)

Guest

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Working with an outside breed.
« on: July 20, 2010, 10:08:57 PM »
 Has anyone thought about, or done any breeding with other breeds with the Ameraucana? I was just looking at my birds and planinng in my head for my breeding pens and what i need to work on. Some of my birds are big, but they are lacking muscle. What would you all think about breeding them to other breeds like say a Rock or an Orpington?  :thinking:The only things i am concerned on is the egg colours and the feet colours. Do i just stick with the same breed or seek out help from the other breeds? If anyone can give me some info about this and or whether I should do this or not, please post! (I am gona breed in the fall after the Ohio Nationals.) Thanks!!! :D

Mike Gilbert

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Working with an outside breed.
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2010, 10:30:49 PM »
At this point it would be foolish to go outside the breed unless you are trying for some uncommon color pattern that isn\'t available by combining the current Ameraucana colors.  It is a long road back to proper egg color, leg color genetics, type, etc.    And then there are the easier problems of comb and muffs.    Unless you have a solid grasp of poultry genetics, I would not recommend an outcross to another breed.   Been there, done that (many times), won\'t do it again.  Life is short, and there\'s too many important things going on.

Guest

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Working with an outside breed.
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2010, 09:46:32 AM »
OK....thanks i will just stick in the same breed..... :D

cedarpondfarm

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Working with an outside breed.
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2010, 01:07:08 PM »
I don\'t think you have to go outside the breed to improve muscling.  Most of the black/blue/splash am chicks that I bought last year from Paul Smith in Texas and Anthony Garner in Georgia grew up to have plenty of breast.  The few that didn\'t got culled.  Now their offspring are chasing bugs in the pasture and developing nicely.

If your young birds are penned all or most of the time, they might be less developed than those who grow up free range.    

grisaboy

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Working with an outside breed.
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2010, 02:33:47 PM »
The process of bringing in another breed into your breeding program is called grading.  This is often done in cattle and other species.  Here is a snippet on grading from an SPPA article.

Grading: (Craig Russell describes this much better than I can)
(from SPPA Breeding Method B – by Craig Russell
Taken from SPPA Bulletin, spring 1999, volume 4, #1)

Grading in breeding is the process by which a population can be “improved” in terms of show points, production, or both. A mixed population or even another breed or variety can be converted to a desired strain, variety, or breed. In practice as well as in theory you could start with a flock of White Crested Black Polish, Cornish Rock crosses, Light Brahmas, or anything else and in eight years (or eight breeding seasons that can be done in four or five years) have a “pure” population of, say, Red Dorkings.
Let’s return to our Red Dorking trio. At the time you purchased them you had eight Cornish Rock hens. These could be added to the original mating. The pullets from the Cornish Rock hens would be mated back to pure Dorking males the following year. The cockerels and the old Cornish Rock hens could be sold or eaten. Any of the pullets could be used in the breeding process, but normal would speed up the process. So if you are going to use ten pullets, pick those with ten toes and some red feathers. In future generations continue to select for birds closest to the desired color and type and cull those with undesirable traits.
The following chart shows the progression in fractions, decimals and percentages from year to year. This works for any breed, but in the example we are grading Cornish Rocks crossed to Red Dorkings.


Year   Fraction   Decimal   Percent   Breed
1   ½   .5   50   Red Dorking
2   3/4   .75   75   Red Dorking
3   7/8   .875   87.5   Red Dorking
4   15/16   .9375   93.75   Red Dorking
5   31/32   .96875   96.875   Red Dorking
6   63/64   .984375   98.4375   Red Dorking
7   127/128   .9921875   99.21875   Red Dorking
8   255/256   .99615375   99.615375   Red Dorking

This process can be continued as long as you like, but for all practical purposes eight cycles yields pure stock. Most large stock with open registries grants pure status after six generations. In cases where one variety is being graded to another or one strain of a variety or breed is being upgraded by the addition of another strain, far fewer cycles are usually required before all of the offspring can be returned to the regular mating system. This is an old system long used by professionals in cattle, horses, swine, sheep, goats, dogs and other stock. Javas and Jersey Blues became Jersey Giants nearly a century ago utilizing this method. In that case, as Giants became a hot item some breeders just started calling their Javas and black Jersey “Blues” Giants and selected breeders with a little more leg. You get the idea.

Developing a new variety or strain differs from grading in that usually half bloods or in some cases three quarter bloods are mated brother to sister and selected. Once birds start to show the desired traits, a combination of rolling matings and grading fix desirable traits and build up the population.


grisaboy

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Working with an outside breed.
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2010, 09:34:25 AM »
Here is another plug for keeping within the breed for improving breed and production characteristics.  
The APA Standard of Perfection has an excellent section in the front of the book that gives criteria for selecting poultry for production.  When the APA started, purebred poultry was production poultry and breeders could use these criteria to get the most out of their purebred production flocks.  I think all breeders of poultry should incorporate these guidelines into our selection criteria to improve the productivity of our flocks regardless of the breed or variety.
The ALBC recently did a project to revitalize the Buckeye breed.  In just a few short years, using the productivity selection guidelines from the SOP, they have made amazing improvements in the size and vitality of this breed even though the strains they started with were mostly very inbred a barely representative of the breed.  Some other breeds, such as Delawares, are also being improved using these same methods.  This would also work for Ameraucanas.

http://www.backyardpoultrymag.com/issues/4/4-6/buckeyes_all-american_chickens.html

http://www.albc-usa.org/cpl/buckeye.html

Curtis

grisaboy

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Working with an outside breed.
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2010, 10:24:02 AM »

Here is another link to the ALBC poultry assessment guides.


http://www.albc-usa.org/EducationalResources/chickens.html#chicken


These are well worth the price (free download)

Curtis

Beth C

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Working with an outside breed.
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2010, 04:50:17 PM »
Great info Curtis, especially the ALBC link. I read through those and this part really hit home for me:

• Malposition of chick or air cell accounts for chicks
that do not make it out of the eggshell – this is highly
heritable. Cull all chicks that are unable to hatch
unassisted.

I have had a huge problem this year with malpositioned chicks and/or air cells (including air cells on the side of the egg instead of the top) and fully developed chicks not hatching, at least not w/o intervention, so this was a real eye opener. I\'d always heard that assisting chicks out of the shell was discouraged because they\'d be weaker, less healthy, have higher mortality rates, etc., but never that malpositioning of chicks/egg cells was hereditary. Now it makes sense why I have seen so much of it this year, when I had great hatches last year from my EEs. It makes me feel so much better to know that maybe it wasn\'t entirely my fault that I was losing so many late in the hatch. I guess time will tell, but I intend to add some new blood for next season, cull heavily, and hope for the best. This time next year I may be doing an \"old judge\" move...