Really? Snow?

[faith valley]

Can not believe that I woke up this morning to a white lawn....snow in November is not very common here in Ohio.  Guess we can not deny that winter will actually come again this year.

Caleb & I got all of the birds brought in and into winter breeding pens last week so decided to take a ton of photos. Fun project~ http://www.faithvalleywaterfowl.com/breed_pen_set_up.html

I was cuious as to what system everyone else uses to track breeding pens or special project eggs.

Patty

[Mike Gilbert]

Great job on your website with all the photos.  You have some very nice stock to work with.    I did notice you mentioned something about fan tails in your females.    I\'m not sure of the exact Standard wording without looking it up, but I prefer my females to spread their tails just enough so they are neither pinched nor fan shaped.   Take a look at the champion large fowl picture, the Black pullet of Jim Fegan\'s.
I thought her tail was just about right.   Tom Kernan\'s black LF RB pullet had a good tail too, but was not holding it in the proper position for her picture.  Again, nice job with your birds - keep up the good work.

[faith valley]

Thanks for the wording correction- I will fix that - You are correct, we are not going for a Jap tail... but not pinched either. I was hoping the standard would give me a \"word\" to use, but unfortunately it does not...

ABA standard female tail description, \" Main Tail- medium length, top two feathers slightly convexed, carried at an angle of about 40 (degrees) above the horizontral. Coverts- quite long, flowing well up the tail.\"

ABA male tail description, \" Medium length, well spread, carried at an angle of about 45 (degree) above the hoizontal. Main Tail- feathers broad, well spread, and medium length. Sickles- broad, well curved, extending beyond main tail feathers. Lesser Sickles & Coverts- medium length, well curved.\"

Do you recommend that we use the wording \"well spread\" from the male description?  It seems to be a nice middle ground term - you are correct that the term \"fanned\" does give  the wrong impression so we do need to change that.

Thanks for catching the error~

Patty

[Tailfeathers]

Patty, you just keep that snow to yourself!      We didn\'t have any summer this year and I\'m definitely not ready for winter yet.

That\'s a very nice looking website you have there.  Very nice indeed.  It makes me think that I need to give more thought into making my website a higher priority.  One of these days I am hoping I can be at a place where I get to just sit down and make it happen.

I particularly like the page which lists your awards for each year.  That strikes me as a good way of keeping track of them.  Would you mind if I use your idea if and when I ever get around to making my website?

To answer your question, here\'s how I track my breeding pens:  

1) All my birds are toe punched.  The first year I just created a breeding pen where I bred each of my two Wheaten and two BW cockerels to each of my females.  That made for 15 different breeding pens.

2) Then as those birds matured, I would look for any obvious faults/DQs, record their #, cull accordingly, and try to identify any trends from either one or both of the original parents.

3) Then I would also look for any obvious improvements and do the same as #2.

4) Then at the end of the year, I\'d sit down pour over all the info I recorded, and put together the breeding program for the next year using my best two W & BW males and the best females from at least four different lines (so far) so I could keep the breeding pens to 16 or less.

I still have many young birds but will be throwing birds back into breeding pens after the next show in mid-December so I think the first nice weekend day we get, I\'ll be going out with pen and paper to record the rest of everything for this year.

Thru this system I was able to identify that my #15 BW Cock and my #15 BW hens had to go.  The cock was throwing over-sized combs and a brown gene and a couple of my hens were laying white eggs.  

This year I\'ve made some real improvement in the black & blue of the tails ans wings on the females as well as eliminating the reddish-brown in many of the cockerels tails.  I\'m not sure who\'s who yet which is why I need to take pen & paper to hand the next nice day we have.

Your system is obviously much more sophisticated and you\'ve got a great layout.  I\'m somewhat envious as I neither have the cranial capacity to manage such complicated - albeit noteworthy - separations in pens such as for tails, combs, etc. nor do I have such nice facilities to house all my birds separately like that.

Ah, but maybe some day.   :rolleyes:    One can dream, right?

God Bless,

[faith valley]

It is actually very easy to track each pen with this method - we have a hang tag on each pen with the egg code, the leg band number and age of each bird in the pen. On the flip side of the hang tag is the desired outcome goals of that particular mating.  So when eggs are gathered the  kids can just write the pen code on the egg and bring the eggs in for incubation.

Fertility and hatchability are both very easy to track.. just marking those chicks is a bit tough. I am super good at toe punching call ducks~ there is a lot of web to work with. But chicks have teeny, tiny webs- that I feel is an art form that I have not yet mastered. LOL

Patty

[Paul]

Hopefully we don\'t see any snow until January-and that’s too soon to suit me.  I prefer the heat rather than the cold!  Very impressive website!  With lots of top quality birds used as breeders.
 
We breed by families.
 
We use a system of breeding full sisters to either a non-related or distant related male.  Each pen is assigned a number from one to 15.  When we have more than 15 breeding pens in the same varieties we use a + and can number 1 to 15 again.  The pen number is recorded on each egg when collected.  They are sorted by their number before going into the incubators.   They are partitioned in groups by their number when placed in the hatching trays.  Then toe punched their number.  The code is 1, 2, 4 and 8 starting with the chicks outside left web being 1, moving right, and ending with the chicks right outside web being 8.  The + are punched the same, then slit with a razor blade.  Several years ago I had 26 breeding pens of black, blue and splash.  The hobby turned into just another job!  Cut back the next year!  With this system of toe punching, records can be kept on how all birds-up to 30 pens are bred.

[faith valley]

Paul,

I like your system of toe punching~ I enjoy hearing how other track their lines and sort their pens.  You said that you mated by families.  How many females do you put in each pen?

Patty

[Paul]

The least is one, and the most that we have had is 15.  It all depends on how many chicks we manage to keep and how many pullets we sell in the fall.  We have only kept 18 black, blue, splash pullets and 17 wheaten, blue wheaten and splash wheaten pullets for the 2011 breeding season.

Usually 3 to 7 full sisters are in one breeding pen with one male.

I have been informed the best way to breed is use a son on his mother and daughters with their sire.  Then mate offspring from each of these two matings together.  Eleven years of breeding poultry and I\'ve never tried this system of breeding.  I\'ve also read where one fancier, breeds his for seven generations, back to the same breeding male.  I don\'t think I\'ll try that breeding plan.

[faith valley]

7 generations bred back seems like you would certainly lock in your traits.... but that sounds like it would be super tight as well. I agre, Idont think I would try that method.  

We do line breed ours. If they get tight, we try to locate a male from the same original line to bring in to loosen the genetics. Usually that first year we get some interesting offspring, but the second year they are good.

Patty

[John]

the best way to breed

If anyone is interested I can email a Breeding Chart to you.  It is by Gene Gilbert and was featured in GAMECOCK years ago.  I don\'t use the system, but it may be of interest.  I\'ve shared it with Paul and others in the past.
I do believe that unless you want to introduce a trait that your birds don\'t have you can breed from a closed flock without needing to introduce new blood.  Inbreeding can cause problems, but by maintaining two or more stains of each variety you can avoid them.
Sometimes those that buy chicks from me are concerned about breeding them together, since some could be full siblings and they\'ve heard about the horrors of inbreeding.  I recommend they don\'t worry about it that first year.  Setup at least two matings of the best, keeping \"compensation mating\" in mind.
The following year breed the males from pen 1 to the females from pen 2 and vise versa.  The other alternative is to breed sire over daughters and/or sons over dams if needed.

[grisaboy]

7 generations bred back seems like you would certainly lock in your traits....

Patty

This method is called the \"7 Diamond Pyramid\".  It is used to recreate a genetically superior bird.  Here is an article about it;


Line Breeding method



With breeding birds I have never followed a great system. I tended to breed best to best with occasional line breeding.
Jim told me of the\' 7diamondpyramid\' which, if followed closely will always breed birds true to the original parent birds.
This is particularly important if we start with  good birds.
However I (and how many of you) have had good birds to breed from and within a couple of seasons was breeding birds inferior to the original couple only because I did not use a scientific method.
Jims Method is as follows.

the\' 7diamondpyramid\'
1st generation Parent Cock (C1) X Parent Hen(H1)
2nd Gen Best Hens to C1 Best Cock to H1
3rd Gen Best hens to C1 Best cock to H1
4th Gen Best Hen to C1 Best Cock to H1
5th Gen Best Hen to C1 Best Cock to H1
6th Gen Best Hen to C1 Best Cock to H1
7th Gen Best Hen to C1 Best Cock to H1
He says that if this system is used then the end result at the 7 th gen. is a bird identical genetically to the parent bird and one which will breed true to type as the parent bird was.  

Obviously other lines can be started
I would appreciate any comments on this. I am onto my third generation with some of my birds and have been very pleased with the results so far.Appreciate any feedback.  BTW his Muscovy ducks, which he sells to restaurants , are enormous and the diet he feeds his birds on is quite amazing. More on this later.Lindon

[grisaboy]

7 generations  sounds like it would be super tight

Patty

Here is another method from an article by Dr Everrett of the SPPA.


The first system I would introduce was utilized by William Morgan, of Morgan Whitehackle fame, and some of the English cockers.
It is a form of breeding known as “3 times in and once out.” This system was used to produce, in cockers’ terms, a “pure strain.” The following chart will explain how the system works. First Generation Hen Cock ½ hen ½ cock
Second Generation Hen to son Cock to daughter ¾ hen ¾ cock
Third Generation Hen to grandson Cock to granddaughter 7/8 hen 7/8 cock
Fourth Generation Hen to grandson Cock to granddaughter 15/16 hen 15/16 cock
Now in the 5th generation you breed the 15/16 hen to the 15/16 cock. Then, choosing the best hen(s) and cock(s) you begin again (Narragansett, The Gamecock, 1985, pp. 44-45).
C. A. Finsterbusch recommends the same breeding strategy in his famous book Cockfighting All Over the World page 152—153. If they chose to continue line breeding these fowl were what they termed “seed stock.” Seed stock was never pitted. Instead, they were crossed to a different strain to produce their “battle cocks.” Battle cocks were never used in breeding pens if this system were employed.
......

If you replace \"battle cocks\" with \"show birds\" you could see how this could be applied to Ameraucanas.  

[vanalpaca]

the best way to breed

If anyone is interested I can email a Breeding Chart to you.  It is by Gene Gilbert and was featured in GAMECOCK years ago.  I don\'t use the system, but it may be of interest.  I\'ve shared it with Paul and others in the past.
I do believe that unless you want to introduce a trait that your birds don\'t have you can breed from a closed flock without needing to introduce new blood.  Inbreeding can cause problems, but by maintaining two or more stains of each variety you can avoid them.
Sometimes those that buy chicks from me are concerned about breeding them together, since some could be full siblings and they\'ve heard about the horrors of inbreeding.  I recommend they don\'t worry about it that first year.  Setup at least two matings of the best, keeping \"compensation mating\" in mind.
The following year breed the males from pen 1 to the females from pen 2 and vise versa.  The other alternative is to breed sire over daughters and/or sons over dams if needed.

CAN I GET EMAILED THE BREEDING CHART? Thank you. Bonnie