Need some advice with breeding

[greeneggsandham]

First off I\'d like to say that I\'m not well read in genetics and struggle to understand what I\'m reading most of the time.  Anybody got a recommendation for a good simple book that would help me get a simple understanding of the genetics of birds?

Secondly, I\'ve been pairing my birds up for the last few years based on looks to try and obtain some better looking birds.  Like I said, I don\'t have a good knowledge of genetics.  I did obtain my birds from a well known breeder here and have been working with what I have, taking notes on them, etc.  I feel I have made some progress in this area, but still have some problem areas that need work.  Mainly, eye color, and leakage.  What I\'d like to ask about here is hackle and saddle leakage.

My colors are black, blue and splash LF.  I have three nice blacks with good hackles and saddle feathers.  I have one splash roo with good size, eyes, form etc.  He has quite a bit of \"straw\" color in his hackles and saddle feathers though.  I would like to get a nice splash roo from him without that problem.  Same with a blue roo I hatched last year.  I kept the best looking one.  He was bred from a black roo x blue hen.  I must say however, looking at pics, that the hen was more lavender looking than blue, imo.  Anyway, he is about 9 months old now and when I put the camera on him, it appears that I am seeing some reddish tint in the hackles and saddle feathers there.  The light in the pen isn\'t great and I never noticed it before.  So, what should I be looking for in my hens to pair up with these two to try to eliminate this problem?

I\'ve got some good looking blue hens here with nice lacing and black legs (I think), a couple of lavender looking hens (with ticking though), blacks and only two splash hens.  

[John]

a good simple book

I don\'t know of any that are as up-to-date as the info on the following website:
http://web.archive.org/web/20051207035940/marsa_sellers.tripod.com/geneticspages/page0.html
Also check out this one:
http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/
And, this culculator:
http://kippenjungle.nl/kruisingKipFlex.html?DATA=S;Kip

[bantamhill]

I would recommend:

Starting Where You Are With What You Have, by Ralph Sturgeon. A Club member found one for me on a used book site. A good common sense look at breeding poultry. You might also spend some time using the search function of the forum. There are many good tidbits of information.

It looks like there is a reprint at http://www.poultrynz.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1297

I would suggest you breed the best to the best and leave the rest! If you have a good black cock or cockerel with clean hackles I would use him over your very best black, blue, and splash hens.

I would not recommend using a cock or cockerel showing any straw hackles. He will pass it on to his daughters and they will produce sons with straw in the hackles. I would not use the blue hens without lacing unless they have exceptional egg color, and even then I would mark all those chicks and evaluate them very carefully.

My two-sense for what it is worth! I made the mistake of using a cock with a little bit of shafting many years ago and lost ground until I culled him and most of his daughters. Basically, I replaced my blacks with different stock.

Michael

[greeneggsandham]

Thanks for your replies.  So basically, there is no way to produce splash hens or cocks using this splash cockeral without him passing the gene to either sex produced?  
What about using my blue cockeral to produce a splash? Or will the red tint I saw be the same problem different color?  And I\'m trying to remember if there is a chance of producing a splash by a blue x blue mating?

[John]

will produce sons with straw in the hackles.

I\'ve found it very easy to get rid of.  Whether you are talking wheat or oak straw a stiff brush will do the trick...I don\'t have any experience with barley straw though.
MICHAEL...it\'s really good to see you back and having some time to contribute to the forum. B)

Michael once said:

black x black = black
black x blue = 50% blue, 50% black
black x splash = blue
blue x splash = 50% blue, 50% splash
blue x blue = 25% black, 25% splash, 50% blue

[Guest]

I\'m sure not a genetics expert nor well experienced in breeding Ameraucana. It has been my experience, though, that bleed will show more frequently [and therefore often first in a line of B/B/S] on the male splash of B/B/S Ameraucanas if they do not have the proper breeding to completely suppress it. I\'m not useing [except as an EE] a splash purchased as a chick due to his red bleed developed at puberty............ he\'s also too upright in both stance and tail set. His appearance has also raised questions in my mind about the other chicks that I purchased with him.............. but there are 4 pullets that just look too good to not use [plus this group of pullets are excellent layers, and some of very blue eggs]. Those that haven\'t already been eaten [LOL] are going to the EE pen.  

[greeneggsandham]

I\'m sure not a genetics expert nor well experienced in breeding Ameraucana. It has been my experience, though, that bleed will show more frequently [and therefore often first in a line of B/B/S] on the male splash of B/B/S Ameraucanas if they do not have the proper breeding to completely suppress it. I\'m not useing [except as an EE] a splash purchased as a chick due to his red bleed developed at puberty............ he\'s also too upright in both stance and tail set. His appearance has also raised questions in my mind about the other chicks that I purchased with him.............. but there are 4 pullets that just look too good to not use [plus this group of pullets are excellent layers, and some of very blue eggs]. Those that haven\'t already been eaten [LOL] are going to the EE pen.  

Forgive my ignorance.  Does that by chance mean the splash offspring of a blue x blue cross?

[John]

hackle and saddle leakage

Even if the pullets and cockerels are of the same genotype the males may show the silver or gold in thier hackles and the females won\'t.  Sometimes the cockerels won\'t show it until they are 6 months old or more.  That is why it is best not to breed from a black cockerel.  Wait until he is a cock.  Even if no silver/gold is seen in his hackle look closely on the top of his head for signs of it next to his comb.  If you see it, cull him too.  Be critical...breed from the best.
Blacks based on \"E\" (Extended) hide silver/gold the best.  If the birds that show it have black shanks my guess is they are E based, but if they have slate shanks they may be ER (birchen) and that doesn\'t hide silver/gold as well.  More genes are needed to take care of it.
Blues can be based on E, but the good ones are generally based on ER.  ER allows for the best lacing, but then it also allows for more \"leakage\" of silver/gold.  Note that the brown red and birchen varieties are also based on ER and they have lacing.
Historically many of us crossed blacks and blues, due to the advantage that you get both from them.  In my opinion that is not the best way to produce good blues because we were basing them on E.  Many of the blacks, blues and splashes are not pure for E either.  I\'m quite sure most are E/E, but that there are some E/ER split and some ER/ER birds out there and it is my opinion that the leaky ones are the E/ER and ER/ER birds.
The advantage of a black based on ER is that they have the contrasting slate legs, rather than black shanks.  The disadvantages I\'ve already mentioned.  Is is worth it?
Here again this is just my opinion, but I feel the best blacks will be E/E and the best blues will be ER/ER.  If so then they shouldn\'t be crossed.  The black and splash sports that are produced by ER/ER blues would be culls.  I never liked blues (or blue wheatens) just because they don\'t breed true and that was one reason I developed lavenders...a similar color that breeds true.  Yes, like every variety it has it\'s faults also.    
You can find a lot of this talked about on other topics here by doing some searches.    
PS...here are some quotes from http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html

Further research by Dr Okimoto (quote from Classroom @ The Coop: Blue & E/ or ER/, posted May 02, 2006) ......
Some of us speculated that Andalusian blue used ER instead of E because ER would be more amenable to secondary pattern genes like Pg. I recently tested some Andalusian Blues from McMurray. I had a mixed batch of chicks so I could only tell the gray ones as blues the blacks could have been something else. There were three gray chicks that produced gray chick feathers. Two were homozygous ER ER and the third was heterozygous E ER. My guess is that E probably causes the dark birds and that the show quality birds are probably ER.

The following is another direct quote from Dr Okimito, first discussing the E and ER alleles, then eb & eWh (quote from The Classroom @ The Coop -Different Kinds of Black ):

Dr Ron Okimoto......\"At the molecular level these alleles seem to be related. Birchin was probably the first mutation. It has the same mutation that causes black fur in some mouse lines. The E allele probably came second in addition to the birchin mutation the E allele has a second mutation at the same position that causes black wool in sheep. So the E allele has a double whamy that produces more black than the birchin mutation by itself can.

The E locus is important to learn with poultry genetics. The common E locus alleles are:

•E (Extended Black) –black/cream day-old chicks, adults predominantly black, but may have some pheomelanin (silver or gold) areas in hackles.
•ER (Birchen)- black/cream day-old chicks, adults predominantly black, but may have more pheomelanin (silver or gold) areas in hackles, wing bows, etc.

Note the difference between \"some\" and \"more\" in the above discriptions.

[Guest]

I\'m sure not a genetics expert nor well experienced in breeding Ameraucana. It has been my experience, though, that bleed will show more frequently [and therefore often first in a line of B/B/S] on the male splash of B/B/S Ameraucanas if they do not have the proper breeding to completely suppress it. I\'m not useing [except as an EE] a splash purchased as a chick due to his red bleed developed at puberty............ he\'s also too upright in both stance and tail set. His appearance has also raised questions in my mind about the other chicks that I purchased with him.............. but there are 4 pullets that just look too good to not use [plus this group of pullets are excellent layers, and some of very blue eggs]. Those that haven\'t already been eaten [LOL] are going to the EE pen.  

Forgive my ignorance.  Does that by chance mean the splash offspring of a blue x blue cross?

I used B/B/S to represent blue, black, and splash; it seems many of us newbies or casual breeders choose this variety. I was actually looking for whites for a project developing a larger type of blue/green egg laying bird more suitable for the table, but found the B/B/S chicks near by. [My F1s on this project are promising; being larger and meatier than an adult Ameraucana by the time they\'re 14 weeks]

I knew some blacks carry ER, that it often results in bleed, but did not know that some have intentionally bred for it on the theory it gets better defined blues until John explained.

[greeneggsandham]

Thanks Steve.  It was so simple, yet I had blue x blue on my mind.

And thank you John for your imput.  That is some useful information.  A couple of  questions, if you don\'t mind, when you say E hides silver/gold best, does that mean you could have an E based bird that doesn\'t show silver/gold but could have it and pass it on?  And if you have an ER based bird that doesn\'t show silver/gold, you have a keeper? And I assume this applies to blues and splashes too?

[John]

you could have an E based bird that doesn\'t show silver/gold but could have it and pass it on?

All chickens have silver (S) or gold (s+) or a combination (S/s+, split as some say) and they would look more silver (white in my eyes) since it is dominant.  So regardless of the primary pattern gene (E, ER, eb, etc.) all have it and pass it on whether you see it or not.
You actually want the blacks to carry gold (s+/s+) to have the best black color with a green sheen.

And if you have an ER based bird that doesn\'t show silver/gold, you have a keeper?

Yes, if you want a solid colored bird, like black.  If you want a brown red bird you want them to have and show gold, just as if you want a birchen colored bird you want them to have and show silver.

And I assume this applies to blues and splashes too?

Yes.

[greeneggsandham]

Thanks for that info.  That\'s good to know.
Well, John, if they all carry it and you are trying to produce blue and splash males, and the best blues are from ER matings, how in the world do you avoid the leakage?  Same question for the splash cockerals, how do you suppress it in them?  Or is this leakage problem in blues and splashes just a matter of hatching a bunch of them, growing them out, and hoping you get one or two good ones? I hope not.    I don\'t have the space for that.
And as far as determining whether your blue, blacks or splash are E or ER based, is there an app for that? Is it strictly based on leg color?

[John]

how in the world do you avoid the leakage? Same question for the splash cockerels, how do you suppress it in them? Or is this leakage problem in blues and splashes just a matter of hatching a bunch of them, growing them out, and hoping you get one or two good ones? I hope not.

Breed from the best, year after year.  Remember the name of the book Michael recommended is: START WHERE YOU ARE WITH WHAT YOU HAVE.  I don\'t want to sound pessimistic, but unlike raising chickens breeding takes a lot of dedication.  If there are birds with the characteristics you want then it can be done.  
Check out the KIP calculator and see what some genes do.  Read - and study - the genetics websites that are linked to above.  Do some searches on this forum using some key words to get more input.  

And as far as determining whether your blue, blacks or splash are E or ER based, is there an app for that? Is it strictly based on leg color?

I don\'t know of any sure way to tell, especially since the phenotype of both is pretty much the same at hatch.  The leg color is just a guess of mine.

[greeneggsandham]

Ok, well thanks for all your help.  I have been doing searches on this website and I got some info, but usually the talk is of another color or doesn\'t quite address my question or is over my head.  It\'s disappointing that pics don\'t show up on seaches either.  But you did clear stuff up.  I do cull quite a bit every year also and keep my best.  Looks like I gave up one of my best blacks because he was small with eye issues. But I have a son off of him.  The size was better, the eyes somewhat, now I will wait a little longer and see if he is leak free like his dad.  Thanks again.

[John]

I do cull quite a bit every year also and keep my best.

...and start culling as day-old chicks.  Look at the photos of chicks on the ABC site and compare.  Some E/E and ER/ER chicks look the same, but if the chick is completely or almost completely black chances are it is ER/ER or E/ER.  
This can save on brooder space and feed.
Keep culling every few weeks or so.