Lavender splits

[dak]

This year I bred my Lav cock to my best Black hens to have some splits that I intended to cross together next year.

I have noticed some cream (off white) colored leakage emerging in the saddle feathers of one of the young split cockerels.  The nicest one of course.  Am I to assume that this bird should be culled and not used for the split x split cross I intend? Or is this just the effect of being heterozygous for the Lav gene.

Clare

[John]

Maybe he is not E/E, but rather E/E^R and the \"leakage\" may be normal for that bird if didn\'t inherit all the modifying genes (eumelanin enhancers) required to hide silver/gold.  
Like recessive white, lavender supposedly has to be pure (homozygous lav/lav) before it causes any effect.
Either way I would suggest not breeding from him, if you have better solid colored birds available.

[Mike Gilbert]

If he has color leakage in the saddle it would be very surprising if he didn\'t develop the same in his hackle.

[dak]

So far the hackles are ok, but they are young.  I will monitor the remaining males, and hope for a better male to mature out.

I seem to be getting some interesting aberations from attempting to cross to Blacks.  I have hatched a couple Lavs from a couple of Split birds I received as eggs last year and have had two Lavs that appear laced and one cockerel with cream on his shoulders.  

How common is it for the Blacks in the general population not to be E/E?

[Mike Gilbert]

E/E is no guarantee a bird will be all black.  It also takes a certain amount of melanizers, just less of them than an E^R/E^R bird.    It\'s easy to get an all black hen, but they are the ones throwing the off color to their male offspring.  Apparently it does not take as many melanizers for females as for males.

[John]

How common is it for the Blacks in the general population not to be E/E?

Clare, Because it is easier to get birds that are all black with E/E many of us breed for that, but some breed for ER/ER along with the required melanizers to achieve black birds.  
Both E and ER enhance black shank color, but I believe with ER you can still get the preferred slate shack color while E produces black shanks.
A problem arises when fanciers buy and cross black Ameraucana LF from two lines...one E based and the other ER.  They have a greater chance of producing cockerels showing silver/gold.
Now if they are also crossing both types of blacks with lavender then they are perpetuating a problem.  Although there is a shank color benefit to ER/ER based black birds, it is best to only base lavender on E/E.  E based lavender birds have slate shanks (lavender dilutes the black).
I\'ve heard a lot in the last few years about \"lavender splits\", but just as all blacks aren\'t the same neither are these splits and lavenders that come from them.
I told Jess in another topic that outcrossing LF wheatens from the sources he mentioned shouldn\'t be a problem, but be careful when outcrossing blacks, lavenders and some others.  

Here is a bit more on the subject...
http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html

Ml (Melanotic) is sex influenced, autosomal incompletely dominant gene. This means that heterozygote hens with only one dose of the black enhancer (Ml/ml+) show very little pheomelanin (gold or silver) on ER (birchen) base (ie acts like a dominant gene). Whereas, heterozygote roosters with only one dose of Ml (Ml/ml+) show more gold on the hackles, wing bows, etc, when ER (i.e, acts like an incompletely dominant gene). Ml homozygous (Ml/Ml) & on its own doesn\'t cover all pheomelanin areas on e+ & ER male birds (although covers a lot), & doesn\'t cover salmon areas of e+ (eg, as in Brassy Backs) & eWh hens. Therefore, other eumelanin enhancers are needed to change the gold/silver areas to black (eumelanin).

[dak]

Thanks John and Mike.

If I am comprehending this correctly then the Split and Lav sisters of these boys showing leakage could carry it to the next generation even if they aren\'t exhibiting it.

Back to the drawing board.....

[HarryS]

Dak,
   Clare,   
       Thanks for posting that picture of your lavender bird on BYC with the peepers on.  I had to use them this year also since I am not allowing my birds to free range till I get the last fox in the area.  Did you put them on by yourself? 
Harry

[dak]

Hi Harry,
 Yes, I can trap the bird between my legs or under my arm and grab the head with my lt. hand and apply with my rt. hand.  The tool to spread them open is necessary.

That said, my 6 y/o delights in helping me apply these.

They will leave a dent in the front of the comb, but this resolves with time.

I don't have a multitude of conditioning cages, so I can grow juveniles up together and still show them in the fall.

I am currently pondering my choices for making a second round of splits this year.  In 2011 I used a Lav/SB cockerel over Black hens.  I am going to try it the reverse way this time, Black cockerel over Lav/SB pullets.  2014 will be the laborous process of hatching Split x Split again in sufficient quantities to have enough to cull from.

[vanalpaca]

John,
"A problem arises when fanciers buy and cross black Ameraucana LF from two lines...one E based and the other ER.  They have a greater chance of producing cockerels showing silver/gold."

I have blacks from Paul, but also some of my blacks are from an Indiana breeder that had Paul/Ribbeck/Meredith lines, brought in Morrow lines in 2010 and Paul again in 2011. I got chicks from her in 2012 along with chicks from Paul directly. I am hoping for some blacks from you as well with this year's order.

So where will I be getting problems with the crosses? Would pauls x john's blacks be ok and should I be careful with the birds from the Indiana breeder as those sound like a wide variety of lines and I might be getting more silver/gold issues?

I'm just dealing with the black birds at this point and all of Pauls stock directly from him are toe punched so this spring is the time to figure this out and get the birds set up right.

Thank you and you can reply here or pm me. Bonnie

[John]

As I understand it E/E birds require the fewest number of melanisers to produce solid black males.
ER/ER or even E/ER males would have a greater chance of having silver/gold leakage, especially in their hackles. 
If you have a line/strain of blacks that always produces solid black mature (12 months and older) males be careful bringing in birds of another strain that may produce mature males with "leakage".  All it would take is one female bred to an ideal cock to ruin years of selective breeding.
I know that many folks are concerned with in-breeding and often times are looking to bring in so-called new blood.  Try to always keep at least 2 lines/strains of any variety that you breed and by crossing the 2 or more strains and careful breeding you'll have all the new blood you want within your own pens.
If a desirable trait/characteristic is missing from your strains you will then need to obtain a bird with that trait...but be careful.

[vanalpaca]

where would a hen have 'leakage'?

[vanalpaca]

Also, how would you 'test breed' to see if you have this in your line?
Thanks, I'm trying to learn what to do and what not to do.