Feathers between toes

[mustangsaguaro]

Have any of you seen one or two single feathers (they are very tiny) in between toes before? Specifically on Lavenders? I have one 5 mo old. It was the male that I thought was a female noticed the other day on both his feet he has a small hint of feathers between one of his toes. The 2 pullets same age don\'t have this. Just curious if others have seen this.

Am assuming should not use this bird for breeding purposes as this could show up in future generations. Should he be culled? Hoping some of the youngsters (currently a month old) turn out to be boys as trying to build up a breeding stock for next year.

Thanks

[Mike Gilbert]

What you are seeing is commonly referred to as \"stubs,\" and they are a show disqualification for clean legged breeds like Ameraucanas.  This is a very common condition.   Experienced exhibitors often check their show birds and remove stubs just prior to showing them.  Whether or not you should retain such a bird for breeding depends on your other options.   I don\'t think it is too big of a deal, but you should never mate two birds that have the same fault.

[HarryS]

The ideal situation for this bird would be the soup pot, the next best place would be for someone\'s backyard pet stock.  If at all possible get a good black male which seem to be somewhat easier than to get a good lavender male.  
As someone has said use what you have available and if that is all you have then use him.  You will be able to cull a good portion of the chicks at day old because a percentage will hatch with visual stubs and can be culled immediately.  Please do not put them back into the gene pool and sell them to someone for their backyard pet stock.  

[Guest]

What you are seeing is commonly referred to as \"stubs,\" and they are a show disqualification for clean legged breeds like Ameraucanas.  This is a very common condition.   Experienced exhibitors often check their show birds and remove stubs just prior to showing them.  Whether or not you should retain such a bird for breeding depends on your other options.   I don\'t think it is too big of a deal, but you should never mate two birds that have the same fault.

Which is known as faking, and also a disqualification if the crooked exhibitor is caught.

[Mike Gilbert]

Steve, I will have to respectfully disagree.   Judges themselves do the same thing,  as does likely every other person with much experience showing poultry.  It is no more faking than washing dirt off a dirty bird, trimming an upper mandible, clipping toenails, brightening up the comb and shanks with your own \"homemade recipe,\" or removing a tattered feather.  It\'s all part of show conditioning and preparation.  But if it bothers your conscience, by all means don\'t do it.

[Guest]

As you said, stubs are a disqualification on breeds that are supposed to be clean legged, and according to the APA:

Faking is a deliberate attempt to deceive the judge or a prospective purchaser.

More specificly, from page 34, under General Disqualifications in the American Standard of Perfection 2010::

e.  Clean Legged Chickens, Guinea Fowl, Ducks and Geese

1. Preseence of, or unmistakable evidence of the removal of any down, stub, feather or part of feather from shank below the hock joint, or foot, or toe.

I\'ve never shown a chicken in my life, but experienced at showing other animals. My experience is that some people cheat, including, sometimes, the judges. The dishonest people usually try to justify it with \"Everybody else is doing it.\"  :rolleyes:

ETA: Before I gave my life to Him, winning was important enough that I didn\'t consider it cheating as long as I didn\'t caught. Today I still don\'t claim to be a saint, but consider some things far more important than winning a show.  

[Mike Gilbert]

Steve, if I thought the practice was dishonest I would not be openly discussing it in a public forum.   My idea of faking is, for example, coloring or burning white tips on dark feathers, shaping the comb or removing side-springs by cutting (except for birds that must be dubbed), using a needle insertion to straighten a comb, and drugging a bird to make it seem docile.  The list could go on.  How about inserting substances in cattle to make them appear more muscular in certain places?   Nevertheless, it (removing stubs) is a valid topic for discussion.     I would like to hear what other experienced exhibitors have to say.  Let me repeat, no-one should ever go against their own conscience.  

[Jess]

Evening Folks.
Steve, you are right on.
There are things in life that are a lot more important than winning at a show.
I would never intentionally deceive any one, if I do, I’m deceiving myself.
I think if it has a defect it is a cull no mater what else it may be.
Just my humble opinion
Jess

[Mike Gilbert]

Jess, if we all cleaned out the birds that had \"defects\" most of us would have few birds left, if any.   There are none that are perfect.

[Beth C]

if we all cleaned out the birds that had \"defects\" most of us would have few birds left

I\'d have zero. I wonder how many people have been run out of this hobby by unrealistic expectations. When I first got started I read  posts (mostly from novices) on another site railing against \"irresponsible breeders\" who use birds with defects (and we\'re talking such truly unforgivable defects as laying an egg with a greenish cast or having less than perfect beards/muffs :rolleyes:). By their standards every bird I owned should have been destroyed -  it was absolutely demoralizing. I\'d likely have given up had I not found more experience breeders, many of them here, who raise birds in the real world...

[Jess]

Evening folks,
Maybe cull was not the right word to use.
I realize that there are none that are perfect but we need to strive toward the mark of perfection.
I just like telling it like it is, not try to deceive people into thinking it is something it is not.
Maybe I\'m old fashioned, but this is just the way I am.
Jess

[John]

I agree it may sound like faking, but in my decades of exhibiting I\'ve only heard it talked about openly as the thing to do or the thing that should have been done.
Removing a few stubs before a show is common from what I have heard, just as many wash thier birds, oil the combs and shanks, trim thier beaks & toe nails, put Pink on the feathers to make them shine, etc.  
I do still wash the mud off the shanks of the birds that I show...sometimes.  My birds are pretty much in as natural condition as they can get when I take them to a show, but where do we draw the line?  I do put the birds I plan to take in small coops for a month or so before the show to calm them down a bit.  Some keep thier birds for show out of the sunlight so they aren\'t faded or yellow.  Those that wash thier white birds with detergent are going to have whiter birds than others.  Few birds are ever shown \"in thier natural condition\".  At what point is it faking?  
It\'s like people putting on thier Sunday best.  Folks get all duded up to go out and they want thier birds to look their best for exhibition.  
There are generally accepted legitimate practices that hide, cover-up or conceal superficial faults.
According to the APA \"Evidence of Faking\" is a disqualification.
Personally, because of my experiences, I can agree with both sides of this discussion.
Let your conscience by your guide.

If you get a chance read an article called Ethics of Fitting and Fixing Birds for Exhibition from 1921.  It gives some background about \"faking\", but also about fitting & fixing or getting a bird ready for show as we would say today.  Pages 23 - 26.
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA23&lpg=PA23&dq=stubs+on+show+chickens&sig=m7IrvXYAZYRGz_xfwplZ0YW3DvU&ei=AgJ9TvyYMZSNsAKLx9Qj&ct=result&id=cSLZAAAAMAAJ&ots=ZOOkMGG1Mp#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Mike Gilbert]

Whether or not a particular bird has a bit of fuzz between two toes is worth about .000000001 percent of a fair evaluation of that bird.  There are tremendously more things to be concerned about.   As you gain experience you will hopefully come to realize what a trivial matter this really is.   You raise wheatens and blue wheatens, right?   Are you going to cull every bird you raise that has a bit of black or blue in the hackle?  It isn\'t supposed to be there!   It\'s a defect!   Now along comes that perfectly colored cockerel, well built, beautiful head, and with a perfectly clean hackle.   You going to cull him if he has a bit of down between two toes???   If so, all I can say is good luck, you\'ll need it.   But don\'t feel bad, I knew a lot more about raising chickens 35 years ago and several hundred shows ago than I do now.   At least I thought I did at the time.

[Guest]

I currently have an Ameraucanas with stubble and even a feather on his legs, and will not use him as an Ameraucana, though there\'s things I like about him more than some other cockerals. Like begets like, and useing them will most likely produce more of the same down the road. I do have a bird from another breed with a couple of stubs that I\'m probably going to have to use.................. and I know for a fact he has a feather legged ancestor a few generations back, so culling in  future generations is almost certain to be necessary.

I realize the APA kind of left a window open with the wording of \"unmistakable evidence of removing\"; and evidently it\'s so common that some do not even realize it\'s a  disqualification to pull stubs for a show, or it wouldn\'t have been suggested as common practise. I\'m thinking this thread might prompt some judges to be looking for evidence at Crossroads.  :p  I would really love to hear some APA judges go on record as to whether feather plucking is faking or not.    

[dixieland]

I have a great amount of respect for all of you.....That being said no bird is perfect, they each have their strengths and weaknesses.....
I come from a similar showing background as Steve, and in years gone by I have done what I needed to do to garner a win.... I am not proud of that. I have since been born again, and although I am happy to talk about my savior and my beliefs with anyone who wants to, I don\'t push them on anyone...Getting to the point- some of the practices that were acceptable to me in my past life are no longer acceptable to me...
Since I am in a very different stage of my life now, I  want to challenge myself to produce the best animal I can, condition it into a fabulous condition, and put it out there to compete and be judged by my fellow breeders and judges...I might still use different shampoos for different coat (or feather) color, and I might still trim whiskers on a dog that has a gorgeous headpiece, and I don\'t know if I will pull a stray feather from between toes of a showbird or not as I have not crossed that bridge........
Since I have not walked a mile in the shoes of many of you experienced breeder/ exhibitors- I may tend to agree with the likes of Mike & John at this point....Although the mad scientist who lives in my brain would be trying to figure out how to eradicate this from future generations, so I can also respect Steve\'s point of view.....