Dominant Bl = Lavender?

[Guest]

Bear with me; I\'m new to breeding for feather color!
If splash results from homozygous blue, is this the recessive blue and Lavender is the dominant? At this time all my birds are free range so I cannot be sure who comes from who, but I have been getting splash and what I think is a Lavender splash (no lacing with lavender color and dark spots of color) for a while now. I began with a blue wheaten rooster years ago, so all this color comes from him as none of the hens had any blue.
Also, I would like to second a comment in another thread that it would be nice to post pictures of colors that breeders are working on.
So many questions ... my interest is definately piqued! Can anyone reccommend a \"Beginners Breeding\" Book. Lots of pictures please ...living in the middle of nowhere, I\'m still struggling with defining the difference between spangling, mottling, strippling, on and on! I\'m making the hens nervous staring at them so hard & close, HA!

[Guest]

Rose,

The blue gene (Bl) causes the black color in a bird to be diluted to a blue color.  In order to have a blue bird, you have to have a genetically black bird.  For example, a chicken that has two extended black genes (E/E), like a black jersey giant,  will normally be black but if a bird has a Bl gene and has (E/E) then the Bl gene causes the black to be diluted to a blue color.  If an E/E (black) bird has two Bl genes then the birds color is  diluted to the point it is almost white with the splashes of blue.  

The blue gene is an incomplete dominant gene. The blue gene is not completely dominate if it were then the one blue gene would cause a bird to be white or splash. If you think about it, the E gene is still being expressed because the bird is gray and the blue gene is being expressed because it causes the black to be diluted.

The lavender gene, lav, is recessive. You always write a recessive gene in the lower case  A chicken must carry two of the lavender genes ( be homozygous) in order to express the trait. One lavender gene will not express the lavender trait. When a bird has two lavender genes, the two genes work together to dilute black and or gold/red in a chicken. For example in the lavender wheatens that are being discussed on the board, the lav/lav gene will dilute the black color in the wheaten male and also dilute the gold/red and any browns found in the rooster.

The best thing you can do to learn genetics is to take one thing at a time. Make yourself a notebook with information about each gene or color. You can even define words or write anything you want. Write down the information in a way that you can understand. Then when you have a question go back to the note book. I have several notebooks I keep information in.


Rooster


 

[grisaboy]

Hello Rose,
It is easy to be confused between Blue, Splash and Lavendar however Blue and Lavendar are completely different genes.  They both affect the black color.  Some shades of blue and splash look very much like Lavendar (Some folks even show these pale blues as Lavendar or Self Blue and it may be impossible to tell the difference unless you know the breeding lines that were used.)

Here is a brief synopsis of the difference.
Blue is sometimes called Andalusian Blue because it is most famous in the Blue Andalusian Breed.
Blue is a heterozygous color, meaning that is the result of the interaction of two co-dominant genes and both have to be present to get the Blue color.  This also means that matings with Blue males and Blue females does not give 100% Blue.
In genetic lingo it looks something like this;
Bl is the Blue gene
bl is the non Blue gene (Black)
Each bird has 2 of these genes so
blbl is a Black bird
BlBl is Splash or nearly White with some blue or black feathers (splashes)
Blbl is a Blue colored bird.
According to the standard this color of Blue bird should have blue gray color with black lacing on each feather.  The base shade of Blue can vary greatly, but they must have the lacing.
Sometimes Blue birds with the BLbl genetics do not have the proper lacing and these non laced birds are the ones that get confused with the Lavendar birds.

The Lavendar color also affects the Black color.
Lavendar is also called Self Blue and sometimes called Belgian Blue.  The color is thought to have originated in Belgium in a strain of fighting games.  The Lavendar color is a uniform soft light Blue Gray color with no lacing.  (By the way, the picture of the self blue Old English in the APA Standard is terrible and not at all close to what self blue should look like.)  The Lavendar gene is a true recessive to black so when crossed to black will give 100% black (unless the black bird you are using already has one copy of the Lavendar gene).  The Andalusion Blue crossed to black will give half Blue and half Black.
Lavendar to Lavendar will give 100% Lavendar chicks   where as Andalusian Blue to Andalusian Blue gives half Blue, one quarter Black and one quarter Splash.  This is true whether they have the proper lacing or not.

Anyway I hope this helps get started on understanding the difference.

Curtis

[Guest]

Now you have something to put in the notebook.
I just added all of the handy new things I have learned about red fowl.

I keep several notebooks too...complete with illustrations and paintings of various fowl I have seen/raised. For the lineage notebooks of various crosses I have photos of all angles of the fowl and of their eggs.
Writing down Bl Bl for a fowl you have raised isn\'t very useful if in 5 years you go back to look at it and can\'t remember what the allele means phenotypically (even if you write down that it makes the feathers blue splash).

[John]

Can anyone reccommend a \"Beginners Breeding\" Book.

As far as learning some basic genetics I think Rooster (whoever he is) has the right idea.  A good starting place is http://marsa_sellers.tripod.com/geneticspages/page0.html.  I\'ve printed the info from that website and put it in a notebook to study and use as a quick reference.
I think an APA \"Standard\" is also a must.  The color protraits are helpful - even though there are some errors as Curtis mentioned.

[Guest]

Well said. Can someone post a close-up of lavender?
Ok, does a blue wheaten have lacing on the blue? (which mine did not). Can they lav gene be present along with the BL? Interestingly, I had a fighting hen that has been a major contributor to my flock. I guess down a long road she could have been carring this lav gene.
My blues are so distinctly different from what I have thought is lavender (no lacing and the feather is different texture).
I\'ve been to the website and it truely was a \"genetics for dummies\" treat. I\'ll put the APA \"Standards\" on my Valentine\'s list.

[bantamhill]

Go to the thread \"Advise concerning a new ameraucana breed\" and look at near the bottom of the second page. There is a good picture of a Lavender/self blue belgian D\'Anver cock.

http://www.ameraucana.org/abcforum/index.php?a=topic&t=165&min=15&num=15

Then compare to the pictures of blue in the following thread at the ABC Sharing Place which contains a set of pictures from the national meet.

http://groups.msn.com/ABCShareingPlace/inthenews.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=5015&LastModified=4675544405183372785&all_topics=1

There is a clear difference between a lavender/self blue and an Andalusian blue. If we get some decent light this weekend I will try to get a picture of a lavender/self blue next to an Andalusian blue.

It is possible to have a bird that carries both lavender/self blue and Andalusian blue genes.

Michael

[John]

she could have been carring this lav gene

Although she may, I doubt it.  Lavender isn\'t very common, from my experience, and very rare in LF in this country.  Please post a photo of her, or send one to me and I\'ll post it for you if you don\'t have the capabilities.
I would guess she is a blue that lacks lacing or good lacing and that is common.  I would guess a lav/splash cross would look splash since a lav/black cross looks black and black and splash are co-dominate genes.
Yes, the blue part of a blue wheaten should the same as a blue.

[Guest]

I managed to get a photo last night, although poor, showing a blue, what I\'m guessing is lavender and a splash. I hope you can see both the lavender and splash have splashes of color(grey/black). So what are they

[Guest]

...hoping someone will look at this ...

[Mike Gilbert]

Lavender does not produce splash.   Andalusian blue to Andalusian blue produces splash.   If the birds in your picture are all from the same line I would say they are (from the left) splash, blue, and black.    The blue is not very good as she does not show the required lacing, but that is quite common.
The second bird from the left looks a little too dark to be lavender, and there are many shades of andalusian blue.
Having said all that, the only way to know for sure is to do test matings.    Phenotype often does not reveal genotype.

[Guest]

Are you sure it is not a Khaki sport? As in Khaki Polish?

http://bluepolish.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/whitecrestedchoc.jpg

Looks like a khaki to me, but I know nothing whatsoever about this color.

[John]

Are you sure it is not a Khaki sport?

The photo doesn\'t show a lot, but I am tempted to agree.  I have had grey colored LF sports that I worked with for a few years.  The bird looks a little darker than what I thought may be Smokey.  Dan Demerest told me they may be Khaki.  The photo looks like a splash and blue with a Smokey, Khaki or your best guess in between.
Below are a couple photos from last spring.  The color appeared to dilute both red and black, but I also remember getting black chicks with mated to pure black.  Maybe it doesn\'t dilute red, but didn\'t do a good job of stopping it from leaking thru.  I think it is recessive to black as lavender is.  I didn\'t keep records and mated white, buff and black cocks over \"smokey\" hens.

[Guest]

John, I am VERY interested in this information. I have \"ghost barred\" and \"smokey\" crosses very much like you describe. I had a bird almost identical to the first of yours for quite some time as well.

I have grey cocks which have little red but have had red birds in their ancestry...they normally have some black speckles or feathers, but not many. Some have lightly patterned off yellow hackles with a smokey color on the inside (kind of like silver with black on the inside). The father was a large white Ameraucana cock whom allowed showed too much yellow (when on corn he would turn 75% yellow with white \"ghosting\" within hackling and tail feathers. It varied from light grey to almost lavender). I call the birds \"unwashed\" because for some reason they always look unkept.

It may dilute red and black, but since any such bird from the crosses (random I guess b/c no notes) would likely not be homozygous, black offspring would be expected. From my birds it doesn\'t seem recessive. It showed in almost all of the offspring, except for a few (though I believe some of the Red Shoulders have it too). The hens weren\'t related and I doubt they also carried the smoky coloration.

[Guest]

Let me see if I have the little pullets photo on hand...I have an adult laying hen of Ambers and Black Ameraucana ancestry. The father was a white color with yellow hackles and a sort of goldish wing. The mother was, of course, black. The result is what you have. I doubt the black Ameraucana carried smoky, but the hen has A LOT of off white smoky color on her with a little golden color on the head and neck.