The Official Forum of the Ameraucana Breeders Club > Breeding
What causes shafting
John:
--- Quote ---So is this \"shafting\" something different than what the SOP is talking about??
--- End quote ---
No. Check out this link for more on the subject.
http://ameraucana.org/abcforum/index.php?a=topic&t=1550
--- Quote ---What happens when you combine extended black and birchen lines? I believe I must have both.
--- End quote ---
The prime example is black cockerels from strains that are supposed to be E/E showing up with silver or gold in their hackles.
Without test mating it is difficult to completely separate the two. Many lines of black, blue and splash birds have both although some breeders try to establish their birds on one or the other.
You can base blacks on E or E^R and have good ones. If your flock (line or strain) of blacks is based on E be careful not to cross in a bird from a flock that is based on E^R.
I know that good lavenders can bred based on E. They may be able to be bred based on E^R, but it would be more difficult just as it is more difficult to produce solid black birds on E^R.
crystalcreek:
--- Quote from: John ---Many lines of black, blue and splash birds have both
--- End quote ---
An individual bird, though, will be one or the other-correct-impossible to have both in the same bird?
If you breed extended to birchen, will that cross produce 50% offspring that are extended and
50% offspring that are birchen? Is it that simple?
Can you look at a day old chick and pluck out any with solid faces (no white/cream/silver down on the head) as a pretty reliable method of selecting which are birchen? Leaving the ones with color (by color I mean white on the face) as extended black. I understand there are melanizers in extended black and the amount of white can vary, so I know it probably would not be 100% accurate.
I just hate to lose my link to fast feather this generation if I don\'t have to. I have four fast feather lavender daughters that are looking pretty awesome at this point (7 weeks old yesterday), good size, fully feathered, clear color, good wing/tail set so far, tight pea combs.......
John:
--- Quote ---impossible to have both in the same bird?
--- End quote ---
No. Since a chick will inherit one gene for a trait from each parent they have two, so a chick could be E/E, E^R/E^R or E/E^R if we are just considering these two possibilities at the E-locus.
--- Quote ---If you breed extended to birchen,
--- End quote ---
Mating a bird that is pure for Extended (E/E) to one that that is pure for birchen (E^R/E^R) will produce chicks that are all 50/50...they will carry both...E/E^R.
With some black chicks it is very difficult to determine which are E/E and which are E^R/E^R by phenotype. If you can than you are way ahead of the game. Compare the black (E/E) and brown red (E^R/E^R) bantam and LF day-old chick photos on our ABC site. It may vary from one strain to another, but you\'ll note that my bantam day-old black and brown red chicks look identical. My LF day-old black chicks look like the bantams, but my LF brown red day-old chicks are almost completely black...very different looking than the black chicks.
Females hide gold/silver better than males and a pullet/hen that looks 100% black may be carrying birchen while a cockerel will generally get culled when he starts to show some gold/silver in his hackles as he gets close to maturity.
crystalcreek:
Thank you, John!
John:
--- Quote ---I had black birds with shafting pop out in the first cross.
--- End quote ---
Jean,
That may be because you used blacks that are birchen based. Those \"blacks with shafting\" were probably ER/e+ (ER is the same as E^R...just quicker to type). ER with melanizers will cover a lot, but with an E/e+ cross no shafting should appear. The F1 chicks from a cross using Extended (E/E) over wildtype (e+/e+) should be all black. Extended black should produce a solid black bird without the help of melanizers that are needed to produce solid black birds based on birchen.
This may not be gospel, but as I understand it...where \"E\" is Extended \"black\" without adding secondary pattern genes like lavender and recessive white...
E/ER, E/eb, E/e+ and E/EWh chicks will be black like E/E chicks.
E/ER, E/eb, E/e+ and E/EWh pullets/hens will be black.
E/ER, E/eb, E/e+ and E/EWh cockerels/cocks will be black as chicks, but develop silver or gold in their hackles as they mature.
Those with so-called lavender split birds that aren\'t pure black may have birds that aren\'t E/E.
Birchen (brown red) birds have gold (red) feathers and although the lavender gene dilutes black to lavender it dilutes red to isabel. If you have lavender males that are isabel where a brown red would be red, your bird is probably not E/E.
We know E/ER males \"leak\" colors thru their hackle and I believe once secondary genes are added, like lavender, they allow more leakage in other areas (just my guess).
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