What Results from Mixing Ameraucana Silver with Ameraucana Wheaten?

[Guest]

All:

I\'m going to start hatching out some Ameraucana eggs end of Feb./early March. I have two Silver roos, a silver hen, and two wheaten hens. I also have 4 RIR hens. OK, the easy part. I know what happens when you mate an Ameraucana with an RIR --you get a mutt, an Easter egger. So, I\'m not going to set any brown eggs. I\'ll only set the sky blue ones, so that means I\'m setting eggs from either a silver or a wheaten. Silver and silver is easy.

So...

1. What is the result of a male silver mated with a female wheaten?

2. Is the result a disqualified bird for showing purposes? (not because I intend to show, but I may sell or give away some of my hatchlings -- I need to know so I can be honest with whoever gets them).

Thanks.

--Ron

[Mike Gilbert]

Ron,  I don\'t believe I have ever made that cross, but I do know the wheatens are sex linked gold (s) and the silvers are sex linked silver (S).   You would have a hybrid, not showable.
But if you do go ahead with your plans and raise a few of these up, how about sharing with the rest of us what you get:
chick down color, color of males, color of females, etc.   I suspect you would get some that resemble somewhat  the Salmon Faverolles color, but these of course would not breed true.
Thanks.

Mike G.

[Guest]

Mike,

Thank you.

I\'m going to start end of Feb/early March, so I\'ll post here near the end of March.

--Ron

[Guest]

Salmon faverolles are silver wheaten birds.  Silver is not completely dominate so what you will get on the male side , S/s+, will be a male that is straw colored where they would normally be gold on a wheaten bird.

The females, S/-, will be silver wheaten and look similar to a female salmon faverolle. The females will be grayer because of the silver.

That would be my guess.  I have not personally made the cross but have experienced the straw color in S/s+ males.

Rooster

[grisaboy]

Ron,
This is how I started my strain of Silver Bantams by crossing a silver duckwing Old English Bantam with a Wheaton Ameraucana Bantam Hen.  
A Silver male over wheaton females will give you silverish males and wheatonish females.  By this I mean the males will look like silvers but have yellowish color where they should be white.  Mine also have had a lot of red in the shoulders. (I\'m still fighting this by the way).  The females look like bad colored wheatons.  I would get rid of the males and cross the females back to your original silver males.  You should get nice silver females in this second mating.
The advantage of doing this cross is to improve type in the Silvers, assuming of course that the wheatons are of better type, and it can improve the wing bar in the males, as a lot of silver males have a weak wing bar where as the wing bar on Wheatons is pretty solid.
The disadvantage, as I mentioned, is that you will get a lot of males with red colors in the wings.
This is a good cross to improve silver females.
You could also generate Silver Wheatons from this cross.  Silver Wheaton Males should look just like Silver males.  The females would be a very pale wheaton color.  I suspect that you would have the same wing color issues.

Curtis

[Guest]

Grisaboy,

From what you\'re describing, I\'ll know very soon whether I have pullets or cockerels on that first mating -- and then I should sell/give away the males; keep the females and let those mate with the silver males I have now. Is that right? (This is regarding the result of the mating of a Silver male with a wheaten female)....

OK...now with the Silver/Silver combo I would just have another Silver, and I would have to wait until I see secondary sex characteristics to distinguish cockerel from pullet, yes?

--Ron

[John]

I\'m also crossing LF silver w/wheaten this year.  I have a very large wheaten cockerel over a small silver pullet.  The LF silvers tend to run small and that is one reason for trying this approach.  I\'m hoping to improve the silver\'s type, besides size and any other benefits that may show up (like less shafting - it could happen).  As mentioned the wheatens have the pattern that we are after.  It just may take years to get the color back to a silvery white.

[grisaboy]

Ron,
Sounds like you are on track.  Be careful about giving away or selling the Silver/Wheaton cockerels.  They will look a lot like Silvers but can really mess up a breeding program if you don\'t know.  Even if you tell the person that you giving them to what they are, you don\'t know where they will end up.  I gave away a few birds like this a few years ago and they ended up at the 4H fair, where I was the leader.  Of course the judge had to ask the kids where they got their \'Easter Eggers\' from.  I would suggest eating them.

John,
As Rooster mentioned,  the sex link SS (silver), ss(gold) gene
will make a difference  in the outcome if you use a Wheaton Male over a Silver female.  The female chicks only carry one S or s gene while the males have two.  So in your cross the males will be the same as what Ron will get, yellowish silver  Ss.  The females will be wheaton with dark flecks in their backs and will have the gold gene s.  A Silver male over a wheaton female will give silver S wheaton females with dark flecks in the back.  
I still think this is a good cross, but using a Wheaton male means it may take an extra generation to get back to pure Silver.
Curtis

[John]

the sex link SS (silver), ss(gold) gene will make a difference in the outcome

Thanks, Curtis.
I didn\'t save any wheaten females and only came up with the breeding plan a couple months ago.  I do have some 1/2 wheaten- 1/2 buff pullets, but they are for another project and don\'t want to I deal with the extra genes for buff in a silver project.

[Guest]

Grisaboy,

Subject of minor confusion on my part. You wrote:

\"Of course the judge had to ask the kids where they got their \'Easter Eggers\' from.\"

I thought an Easter Egger resulted when you crossed Ameraucanas (or Araucanas for that matter) with another breed, say an RIR (which I will absolutely not do...I\'m consuming all my brown eggs).

Why would a hybrid Ameraucana (OK as I now know not showable) be regarded as an \"Easter egger?\"

Anyhow, whoever I sell/give away the birds to will know they\'re not showable or suitable for 4H; what happens after that I would not know -- that\'s up to the new owner of the birds whoever that may be. As long as I\'m honest and upfront about their status, I\'ve done my duty as a seller/giver.

[Mike Gilbert]

Some of us take the position that one of the primary differences  betwen easter eggers and Ameraucanas is that the former do not breed true for recognized color patterns and/or conformaton, and that the latter do.  Ameraucanas were bred up originally from easter eggers, so it seems to us  they could regress to that status quite readily.  Of course easter eggers would include all kinds of other chickens and bantams that possess the dominant O gene as well.    Not everyone will agree, but I believe that crossbred Ameraucanas (crossed varieties resulting in splits at the e-locus), while perhaps useful in breeding programs, are not really deserving of the name Ameraucana.   Hope that does not cause any firestorms, but it is a topic that perhaps could be discussed.

[Guest]

Well....we know that Easter eggers are so called, because their egg colors can be pink, green, some variation of blue, olive, etc., etc. This is what would result if I hatched eggs resulting from the mating of one of my male silvers with an RIR. The resultant bird would be a mixed Ameraucana/RIR -- absolute Easter egger -- and you\'d get all manner of pigmentation on the egg shells. Right?

This is why I won\'t set my brown eggs.

We know that Ameraucanas lay sky blue eggs. So do Araucanas.

If we cross within Ameraucanas (Silvers and Wheatens, etc.), does the second generation hen lay a sky blue egg, or does the shell pigmentation change?

From what you\'re describing, even crossing within Ameraucanas can result in a mongrel or Easter egger -- in other words, there\'s more to being an Easter egger than laying multi-colored eggs; or being the result of crossing an Ameraucana with a totally different breed -- crossing varieites within the breed can produce an Easter egger. Do I have that straight?

[John]

Here is what we have on FAQ page of the ABC website.

What are Easter Egg chickens?

The Ameraucana Breeders Club defines an Easter Egg chicken or Easter Egger as any chicken that possesses the blue egg gene, but doesn’t fully meet any breed descriptions as defined in the APA and/or ABA standards.  Further, even if a bird meets an Ameraucana standard breed description, but doesn’t meet a variety description or breed true at least 50 of the time it is considered an Easter Egg chicken.

Another wording says:

“The Ameraucana Breeders Club defines an Easter Egg Chicken or Easter Egger as any chicken that possesses the blue egg gene but doesn’t meet the Ameraucana breed descriptions as found in the APA  and/or ABA Standards.  Further, even if a bird meets the Ameraucana standard breed description, but doesn’t meet a variety description or breed true at least 50 percent of the time it is to be considered an Easter Egg Chicken.”

As Mike said not everyone agrees totally with the definition, but the Board has voted to accept it for now.  Mike\'s last ABC Bulletin article and Poultry Press article (page 53) go into more detail as to why many feel a definition is needed.  More input from the membership on this subject is wanted and a final vote on a definition will be presented to the membership by the end of the year.

If our reputation as a breeder is at stake, we may do better by eating our cull birds than selling them.  I do sell many, but if I had the same experience as Curtis I would make sure I only sold culls to folks that want to butcher them.

[Guest]

Many people focus in on the egg color of the ameraucana. This is important but do not forget ameraucana must also be a specific variety or color.  They must be white skinned and have blue/slate shanks and feet.  The black variety can have black shanks. Other traits are muffs and beard and a pea comb. These are a few of the traits and any deviation from the standard makes the bird an easter egger.  I have a good looking blue easter egger. She has muffs and beard, pea comb and willow shanks because of her yellow skin. Not an ameraucana she has yellow skin and willow shanks. Even if you cross two recognized varieties and produce a different variety the new variety is an easter egger because it does not fit into the standard of perfection. The bird may not be a mutt but it does not fit the standard.


Ron,

I would agree with Curtis on the red on the shoulders. I went back and checked my breeding notes and found that silver can leak red on the shoulders and the color is not due to the wheaten. The red will become darker with the adult plumage.

If the ameraucana carry two genes for blue egg, O/O, then all their F1 female offspring  will produce blue eggs. The male F1 will also carry the blue egg gene and pass them on to his
offspring.  

If any of the pullets from the cross, (female blue egg layer X rooster),  produce a white egg, a tinted egg or a green egg that would indicate the male is carrying genes other than blue. A green egg would indicate he was carrying brown egg color genes. A white egg would indicate the rooster and the hen would be carrying a gene for white egg color.  Hens  that carry the blue gene, (O) and the white gene, (o)  for egg color produce blue eggs. A tinted egg would indicate the female is carrying a white egg gene and the male is carrying brown egg genes.

Another note in which you may find interesting. The silver duckwing OEGB carry gold diluters that help get rid of the gold that may show up in them. If any one is having problems with gold on the silver they may try crossing with OEGB to get the diluters into their stock. Just an idea for the bantam variety. I do not know if the diluters are recessive or dominate.

Rooster

[Guest]

OK...Thank you all for clarifying that. I think I got it all now.

Just to clarify, my excess hatches are most likely going to the Agway where I got the RIRs from and where I dropped off a particularly mean Silkie. I already knew that my Ameraucanas were not show quality when I bought them, so I was already going to tell the guy that the offspring are likewise not show quality.  I\'ll also let him know what I\'ve learned here (mixed variety Ameraucana = Easter Egger or mutt), so that he doesn\'t sell them to someone looking to show them (Not that anyone goes to a tractor/feed store to buy show birds, but I\'m going to cover myself anyway).

My purpose in breeding is not to produce show birds, or to produce on a mass scale, but to perpetuate my flock so as to be covered in case of losses (old age, predators, illness). Ameraucanas, like any other living thing don\'t live forever, and they\'re not the easiest birds to get. I was very fortunate to find somone who had some for sale.

Easter eggers, though they may be, I\'m sure my Ameraucana\'s offspring will be adorable all the same.

Now...just to recap: Silver + Silver = Silver...we\'re in the same variety (in my case still non-show, but that don\'t matter to me -- I just want to have an idea of what I\'m hatching).

Silver Male + Wheaten Female will result in a male with yellowish rather than white feathers; gray where the silver should be; and I\'ll likely see some red in the shoulders and wingtips. The female will look like \"badly\" colored wheatens. In essence my first hatch will be a sex-link, which means I\'ll know which ones are roosters on day one.

To keep this going, I get rid of the young roos and cross the offspring females back to the original roosters (next year); but there is no sex link on the second generation.

The offspring off all generations will still lay sky blue eggs and will be considered hybrid Ameraucanas, not fitting into any variety other than the one I\'m creating now.