Breeding and Genetics...oh my!!

[JSDJ Farm]

I have spent way too many hours (according to my husband) reading all the breeding posts...I am totally lost and confused! My gaol is to breed very good quality birds so I keep very small breeding groups in all the breeds on my little farm...My Wheaten Amers are my biggest breeder flock. I have 3 Ramey gals ( 2 blue,1 black) and 1 blue from another breeder along with a gal that is a nice example of standard Blue Wheat but her egg color is bad...really bad...I have her tagged and use her just for egg production. I do believe she is pure as her eggs started with blue splotches and sometimes even half blue like you dyed one end (wish I had took pics) to now they are absent of blue. I keep a Blue Wheaten roo over this flock who I let emotions get the best of me and rescued from a reputable breeder but he was low man and was sooo picked on...he has a limp that has improved dramatically and is amazing to look at...but he is clumsy and "falls off" so fertility is hit and miss...My question is on them should I work on finding more black gals to add while I wait to see if my roo continues to improve? ( I love his colors and he will be a fine boy if he gets past this). And would hatching and raising a roo from my stock be a good replacement for him ? His personality is top notch and he is excellent with how he treats the gals. I want to keep that personality trait! Any advice is greatly appreciated...I know I may need to change roos...I want to stay with a Blue roo but want good coloring from my flock...I am reading that blue over blue gives splash wheatens? but since that is not a recognized color are the really desirable? Thanks in advance...I will have many more things to ponder in the future I am sure!! =)

[Beth C]

It would help if you can post some pictures of your birds, but in general, every flock has areas where they shine, and one stubborn fault they are struggling to eliminate (and a big ol' raspberry to anyone who has ONLY one ), along with plenty of "passable but not where I want it." The trick is deciding which you can tolerate, at least short term, and which ones really drive you nuts, and they'll be different for everyone. If you ask 10 breeders what they'll work with and what's a deal breaker, you'll get 10 different answers. But here are some of mine, hopefully some others will weigh in with theirs.

Obviously genetic defects go immediately.Temperament is also high on my list - I don't feed what I don't like.  I want a bird with good type/balance/substance, and, in my w/bw/sw, more black in the wings/tails of females and beards on males, and less in the hackles of both. I'll work around sparse beards/muffs to improve something more difficult. While my egg color has been pretty decent in w/bw/sw (buffs- won't go there) I don't get too caught up in it, because there is no standard for egg color. While it is likely the most hotly debated characteristic of the breed, you'll be hard-pressed to find 2 people who agree on what the "correct" egg color is. I'm not saying egg color doesn't mattr, but I'd never cull an otherwise good bird for something so subjective. The exception being white eggs, which I haven't personally dealt with it, but I've heard can be a real headache.

But it doesn't sound like that's what you're seeing. Eggs are bluest early in the season and tend to fade the longer the hen lays. I'm not sure what causes the splotchy color - I had a lavender last year whose eggs looked like Saturn (little alien) - every egg consistently had a band of darker blue (same blue, more pigment) around the middle.

Anyway, not sure if I answered any of your questions, but there is a wonderful book that I purchased at the recommendation of several of our gurus, and I think you'll find it very helpful. I sure did! The book is Start where you are with what you have - A Guide to Poultry Breeding By Ralph Sturgeon and the only place I know of it being available is: http://www.poultrynz.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1297

Good luck! Hope to see you at some shows!

[JSDJ Farm]

Thanks Beth...the egg in question is just creamy white now...so she is NOT a breeder even though she is perfectly gorgeous otherwise...I have nice medium blue eggs in my other gals and good structure...My roo is also very nice...maybe not the best but I have recieved compliments on him quite often...but if his gimp doesnt get better he is out...I need fertility...I am being patient because his looks and personality are what I want...I guess my biggest question for now is with 3 blue gals (one is soo close to being splash) and a black under a blue roo do I need to maybe consider adding a black gal or consider changing my roo to a black? I do not want to dilute my blues to much and I love my rich deep blue roo! I have got to figure the pic thing...looks like I have to do a url posting of pics instead of direct upload...

[JSDJ Farm]

Figured out pics as attachment...not the best pic of my roo because he has grown out more since and beard is getting better...I will take a recent in a bit to post!

[Beth C]

I'm not sure what you mean about blue & black - are you crossing wheaten/blue wheaten/splash wheaten with black/blue/splash?

[Mike Gilbert]

It's very helpful to use correct terminology.   I was confused as well, but that's pretty normal I guess.   Also, people who have been in the exhibition poultry fancy for some time don't use the term roo.  It's cock or cockerel or rooster.

[Beth C]

people who have been in the exhibition poultry fancy for some time don't use the term roo

Does anyone else immediately go here when they see "roo?" 

With me and Tigger and Pooh

And Eeyore and Lumpy too

And Piglet and Rabbit and Roo

And Buster and Holly, hoo hoo! 

[Sharon Yorks]

I didn't before, but I probably will now. I bet from hear on out, every time I hear Roo, I'll now think of Pooh.

[Don]

Welcome Samatha.   Hope we get a change to meet this fall at one of the shows in NC.  Beth has already requested meets for several shows so hopefully we can have a good showing of birds this fall. 

You might do a search for the blue/black/splash breeding ratios to give you an statistical average of results for various combinations.  You will see several discussions about the best way to breed blues if that is your goal.  W/bW and sW are a bit more complicated but I think that the same general results will apply.  You can breed the best that you have until you find another bird that you feel will give you better results. 

Regarding lingo/terminology, different forums use many different terms or acronyms.  Folks at the shows, and us old folks, will typically use the terms in the Standard of Perfections.  Most of us had to learn along the way, we just forgot that it took us a while too.       

[heatherscooby77]

I type roo, but I talk rooster.

[JSDJ Farm]

Sorry I figured since I was talking wheaten everyone would understand BLUE Wheaten ...Wheaten ( I say blacks for the Black roos and gals with black gene) and the newly pointed out to me Splash Wheaten whitch hens appear absent of colors and roos are light "washed out" blue?? Sorry guys...I will type longhand in the future =)

[JSDJ Farm]

I'm not sure what you mean about blue & black - are you crossing wheaten/blue wheaten/splash wheaten with black/blue/splash?

Only talking Wheaten colors....Sorry

[JSDJ Farm]

Thank you Don...I have never had a problem on other forums...And I hope to meet many people at the shows in fall...I have attended some because I feel that is a great way to see good standard in person! I may eventually exhibition but for now I am working on quality...I have lots of request for eggs and chicks but I want to offer GREAT birds...period...I work to keep the small breeding groups so I have control and can see my results without wondering who laid what and bred with who!!

Welcome Samatha.   Hope we get a change to meet this fall at one of the shows in NC.  Beth has already requested meets for several shows so hopefully we can have a good showing of birds this fall. 

You might do a search for the blue/black/splash breeding ratios to give you an statistical average of results for various combinations.  You will see several discussions about the best way to breed blues if that is your goal.  W/bW and sW are a bit more complicated but I think that the same general results will apply.  You can breed the best that you have until you find another bird that you feel will give you better results. 

Regarding lingo/terminology, different forums use many different terms or acronyms.  Folks at the shows, and us old folks, will typically use the terms in the Standard of Perfections.  Most of us had to learn along the way, we just forgot that it took us a while too.     

[Beth C]

Sorry I figured since I was talking wheaten everyone would understand BLUE Wheaten ...Wheaten ( I say blacks for the Black roos and gals with black gene) and the newly pointed out to me Splash Wheaten whitch hens appear absent of colors and roos are light "washed out" blue?? Sorry guys...I will type longhand in the future =)

Thanks for clarifying - the reason I ask is several people have breeding projects where they've crossed on black to improve one trait or another in a different variety (Jean crossed silver on black, and everyone is still breeding lavender back to black). Since the wings & tails of wheatens are black by default, you can just say wheaten and everyone will know you mean the ones with black. The blue is a modifier, one copy of the gene turns all of the black on the bird to blue (so a black becomes blue all over and a wheaten becomes blue in the wings & tail). Two copies of the gene will dilute it even more, sometimes to the point that the areas that would normally be black are mostly white. I don't know if you are familiar with horses, but the way I remember it is palomino. To get that pretty gold color you have to breed palomino to chestnut. If you breed 2 palominos together, you get a washed out buttermilk color. That's how blue works in chickens.

And I hope I didn't sound like I was poking fun at you on the roo thing - someone, I think John, said something once about a roo being a "young marsupial" and I immediately thought of Roo from Winnie the Pooh (my son is 6) and now I can't see "roo" w/o giggling!

[JSDJ Farm]

Beth...I actually loved the roo/winnie the poo thing!! And I now get the confusion over projects...I am really just working on getting great wheatens and avoiding splash...but looks like I need to change a few things. I feel like splash is result of poor breeding in wheatens but had posted a pic of a hen on another site and a lady called her splash and was so excited I had them...kept saying they were rare and highly wanted...then she posted a pic of a splash wheaten rooster and all I saw was a washed out blue....and I dont want washed out blue...I want deep clean blue! Besides my gal she called splash wheaten has blue in her...you just dont see it when she is all tucked tight and posed...I would not mind it in a hen but I want to be sure it does not affect roosters...I believe I will add a wheaten rooster and move Gomer( blue wheaten rooster). He cant get the job done anyway but he is such a good boy.I will just put him with my wheaten hen and put a wheaten rooster over my blue wheaten hens. My egg color is good so I am working on hatching good blues and now I can help educate anyone who buys from me.

As far as some comments...on other sites I have had to specify color totally on wheatens, when I would type wheaten I would get asked blue or black quite often so I was trying to be specific here then tried to cut down on typing because I was on limited time. As far as using roo...it will be a hard habit to break...I had to correct it above everytime! I am a simple farm girl... I live with the ideal not to pick at small stuff (which is hard because I am specific with my birds and want the best breeding which means I pick thier details obssesivly)and to enjoy life and the people and things around us.To be gratefull we are here with each other and to encourge others...life is too short to sweat the petty stuff and pet the sweaty stuff!!