Determining Gender in Brown Red Chicks

[Mike Gilbert]

I picked the following quote off the Genetics Forum at Classroom at the Coop.   What it means is that for chicks that are birchen or brown red (ER at the e locus and having black down), there is a way to tell the gender at hatch with a fair amount of certainty.   About 71.7 % of females will have white or pink toes/feet, while males will have uniformly pigmented shanks and toes.   Not nearly 100% accurate, but it is another tool for the toolbox for us brown red breeders.    (Anybody want to buy some chicks? - most of them will be males.)   The quote follows:

"Sexually dichromatic variation in shank melanization, similar to that described in Barred Plymouth Rock chicks, was observed in the absence of sex-linked barring (B) in black-down birchen (ER) chicks. The shanks of male chicks are uniformly pigmented. The female chicks have more darkly pigmented shanks, and pigmentation is frequently restricted in the distal portion of the shank and toes. Among chicks definitely demonstrating the male or female phenotype, 80.2% were accurately sexed. An intermediate shank type was observed in 35.1% of the total number of chicks, and these were sexed with 55.9% accuracy. A total of 71.7% of the birchen (ER) chicks were accurately sexed on the basis of shank color alone. This accuracy in sexing is similar to that observed in Barred Plymouth Rock chicks."

Although no study on this has been reported, I see no reason why the same tool could not be used on blacks and blues that are based on ER - and maybe lavenders too.    Anybody raising those varieties care to do a study and let us know?

[Sharon Yorks]

Not quite sure what you said, but I'll do a study. But just to clarify, according to your findings, what are the sex of the chicks below? If their feet have a lot of dark and light, they are??? If the feet are mostly one color, they are???

[Mike Gilbert]

The one that has dark pigment almost to the end of the toes is likely to be a male.   For females, the dark section is supposed to be darker but with unpigmented toes.  So if the chick has white/pink toes but the part above it is not real dark, it could still be male.   I can't make predictions on your photos because I can't be sure how much the flash affected the shade of darkness on the legs/shanks.

[John]

Mike,
That's a new one on me and interesting.  Please post a link here to the topic over there, since I don't see it and want to read more. 
Looking at Sharon's photos I would have guessed #2 to be E/E, but I may have to rethink my thinking. 

[Mike Gilbert]

Here you go John.  There isn't much more than what I posted, as it was a meandering thread as they oftentimes are over there.

http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=108338&page=1

[Beth C]

Very interesting! I'll play. The chick I said screams male has pink middle toes, but just the middle ones.

[Mike Gilbert]

I am thinking female on the last one of the four and the first three males, but can't be sure on account of the possibility of camera flash affecting the shade of darkness on the shanks.   But again, I'm not betting the farm on it.

[Sharon Yorks]

I noticed that one of the blue chicks I hatched a few days ago has a black spot on its head. Does anyone know what it is or why it shows up? This is the first chick out of Reba (blue) and she was breed to a blue rooster.

[Birdcrazy]

Sharon, Just looking at your 2 pictures I would say the chick looks like a Splash, not a Blue. Maybe the lighting in the picture is fooling me, but that would be my guess.

[Sharon Yorks]

Sharon, Just looking at your 2 pictures I would say the chick looks like a Splash, not a Blue. Maybe the lighting in the picture is fooling me, but that would be my guess.

You kind of had me wondering, but nope, she's a blue. This was taken today at 24 days old.

[Sharon Yorks]

I just now made an observation. Here are two more chicks out of the same blue on blue rooster and hen. These chicks are only 11 days old and the other chick was 24 days old. The light colored chick (which I thought was a splash) looks like its feathers are coming in dark, too. The other chick (which I am almost certain is a male) was born with a very pretty shade of blue. The blue one has a spot on its head, too.

I'm wondering if it's possible to tell the sex of this pair of adults, by the color of the chick...the lighter ones female and the darker one a male. The feet thing wouldn't hold true, though.

To be continued...

[Birdcrazy]

Sharon , My brother told me a long time ago to study the chicks from your own breeding lines, and from evaluation over the years you will be able to determine desirable characteristics you wish to keep. The more you study the better you can evaluate your chicks at a younger age. If the chick you had in the picture was from my breeding line, it probably would have been a Splash. I guess it shows Blues can be all over the board when it comes to color from light blue to almost black with blue on the chest.
.

[John]

The more you study the better you can evaluate your chicks at a younger age.

Right on!  I've been promoting culling day-old chicks for several years now based on phenotype.  Once you figure out which chick phenotype grows into the best show quality birds you will know what to look for and save money by not broodering and feeding the run of the mill chicks.  "Chick Uniformity" is a term I picked up somewhere along the line and even use it on my Chick Hatchery site's FAQ page.

[Beth C]

My brother told me a long time ago to study the chicks from your own breeding lines, and from evaluation over the years you will be able to determine desirable characteristics you wish to keep.

Michael told be something similar. He suggested taking pictures of individuals once a week from hatching through maturity and look for patterns. Those patterns are likely to repeat in subsequent years (assuming you don't out cross, then all bets are off). In past years I've started this then had bands come off, numbers rub off of bands, or other forms of ID fail (tried tattooing one year, couldn't read half of them @ maturity). The wings bands are working better than anything else I've tried so I'm going to give it another go this year. And I'm hatching way fewer chicks this year, so I have the time to pay more attention to individuals.

[greeneggsandham]

I noticed that one of the blue chicks I hatched a few days ago has a black spot on its head. Does anyone know what it is or why it shows up? This is the first chick out of Reba (blue) and she was breed to a blue rooster.

Hmmm...glad I found this again.  I've got the same thing showing up in a hatch I just had.  A blue x blue cross with chicks that I'm questioning whether they are splash or blue.  I'm thinking blue, just very, very light.  I also have the darker blue spot on the head of some.  I must admit, I haven't seen this before in blues and was debating keeping one to grow out and see what happens.  I'm not thinking it has anything to do with sex, but may have much to do with coloring and lacing perhaps?