Author Topic: Silvers infertility dilemma...  (Read 8387 times)

Fyremare

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Silvers infertility dilemma...
« on: May 03, 2013, 01:03:22 AM »
My Silvers are 13 months old, the hens never laid last year. At least one began laying in Feb, and the other not until March sometime. I penned the Silver roo March 2nd in a 10x20 pen, with his two Silver hens and added 4 other hens in hopes that extra girls would spare anyone being featherless. That is working, my puzzle is this... There is some fertility with this rooster with at least one if not both blue hens. I am not getting much fertility with the Speckled Sussex but she is a young hen. The two Silver hens have yet to produce a chick. I am not incubating eggs from the SLWyandotte.
Eggs have been incubated by others for me and are using cheap still air styro bators. So at first I thought it was the incubation. But even with these bators some of the Blue Silvers are hatching. Not at a great rate, but some are hatching.
I was lent a Hovabator and just candled at day 11. Eggs from the bator donator are developing W/BW Ams), my Silvers and Blues are not...
I have a Brinsea Mini Advance that i fired up a couple days ago and am giving that a go.

The weather has sucked, been cold and a really slow spring here in Vermont. I usually collect eggs three times a day, have been keeping them around the 60 degree mark, tilting the eggs twice a day, feeding layer pellet with extra protein treats like sunflower seeds, meal worms, sometimes cat food, occasional scrambled eggs with coconut oil, and kelp. Apple cider vinegar with the mother in it in the water at a rate of 1-2 Tablespoons to a gallon, adding vitamin and electrolytes in water.

Are Silvers really this slow to develop? One is definitely still laying a pullet egg. I have not incubated very many of hers. The rooster is mounting and is not rough on the girls. He is attentive and does his job well.

I am so discouraged that I am considering un-penning them so they can free range again. They all pace the cage. I have eggs in three different bators at the moment. If nothing comes of these hatches are there any suggestions for what I can change? Or do I need to let them age a bit more?

I noticed in another post on infertility that some of you feed a 20% game bird feed or grower? Do you provide crushed shell for calcium since it's not a layer ration? I use Durvet vitamins and electrolytes because it's what is available locally. I use it at half strength because it seems to cause runny poops if full strength. I noticed in the other forum some of you use a supplement I didn't recognize.

Any help is appreciated and am hoping especially breeders of Silvers will share your knowledge and experience with me. THANK YOU!!!

Chris K

greeneggsandham

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Re: Silvers infertility dilemma...
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2013, 09:03:40 PM »
I don't have any experience with silvers, but yes, supplement with oyster shell when using grower feed. 
Sometimes hens just don't like the rooster they are with and will not let them breed them.  I had one this year that would not allow herself to be bred(her eggs were candling clear) so I put her with another more aggressive cockeral and finally did get her bred.  That may or may not be your problem.
 I also use supplements in the water but I would not do it daily.  Maybe once a week.  I think you could be over dosing them with the sodium if you give it to them every day.   I also don't know what effect acv would have on the hens if used daily.
I have also read that sometimes there is a little too much fluff around the vents and if you are having trouble with fertility, you could try trimming the feathers around the vent of both the hen and rooster.
That's all I can suggest.
Sharon
Hubby rues the day he brought the chicks home...

Fyremare

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Re: Silvers infertility dilemma...
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2013, 11:02:50 PM »
Thanks Sharon,
They have been penned for two months, I let them out to free range today. They were pretty happy! Had to figure out how to keep the other roosters separated from the breeders. Hopefully that continues to work out.

I did notice today when I checked fertility that the free rangers had a much better color egg. So am hoping letting them out to free range a bit will help them. They may just need time to mature also. Will consider dropping the supplement down and the ACV also.

Next trip to the feed store I will get a higher protein feed also... Gotta keep trying!

Jean

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Re: Silvers infertility dilemma...
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2013, 06:31:51 PM »
Some birds just don't click together. 

Did these birds come from the same hatch and if so, how long were they bred together?  There is the possibility of being too closely related.

See if you can find a different source for a cockerel.
Jean

Russ

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Re: Silvers infertility dilemma...
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2013, 09:47:31 PM »
I have a 20% layer custom milled at my local co-op for roughly $12.50 a 50 lb bag (I buy 1/2 ton at a time) I also include vitamin supplement in the water twice a week. The only time I have had fertility issues is when the cock had a low sperm count. This happened to me 3 years ago when a hawk took my best cock. Then my second best ended up being a dud. Out of 150 or so eggs I was lucky to get 20  or so to hatch, talk about discouraging. I now never let my breeders free range, keep there pens covered with 2x4 welded wire and more importantly keep several cockerels for each variety every year just in case. At 13 months they should definitely be mature enough to breed. Beside your cock having low sperm count you might want to check for parasites, internal and external.

Fyremare

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Re: Silvers infertility dilemma...
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2013, 11:04:04 PM »
Thanks Jean and Russ,
Jean, yes they are from the same hatch. I don't know how long they were bred together.
I have never seen them be aggressive with each other. I looked them over closer in the last few days. One Silver and one Blue are showing more mounting wear than their color mates. Before I penned them they hung out together even with the other rooster being top roo. One Silver hen was not laying when I penned them the beginning of March. The other had barely begun.
There are basically no breeders of Silvers closer than PA and even those are originally from the same breeder as mine.
Russ, I don't have the capacity to buy feed in bulk or to keep too many multiple roosters. I love the color and it is my first intentional breeding. I am new and learning. Also most of my birds before this were hen raised, am on my maiden voyage with an incubator. Friends hatched for me until someone let me borrow theirs for a hatch.
If it doesn't start to work out better, then enjoying the birds I do have will be the priority. The whole flock ran together before March 2nd. The boys had their own girls and worked at their guarding job together. No idea if they will ever do that again.
Thanks for your ideas and suggestions!
Chris

Fyremare

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Re: Silvers infertility dilemma...
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2013, 10:28:21 PM »
So the update is still no Silver/Silver chicks, the breeding pen is now integrated back into the flock and I am trying to enjoy my chickens!

DeWayne Edgin

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Re: Silvers infertility dilemma...
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2013, 05:43:10 PM »
I did a google search on this same type of thing and i found some neat stuff on Backyard chickens web site. I will see if i can find it again and copy it to here for everyone to see. I don't know if i believe it all so you guys can give your opinions on it.

DeWayne Edgin

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Re: Silvers infertility dilemma...
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2013, 05:49:00 PM »
Fertilization in any animal depends on production of eggs from the female and sperm from the male. A problem with either sperm or egg production can decrease fertility. The rooster's reproductive system is simple when compared to humans or other mammals. The rooster does not have a prostate gland or any of the accessory reproductive glands. Like all other animals, chicken sperm carry the genetic material from the rooster and are produced within the testes. The rooster has two very large testicles within the abdominal cavity on each side of the backbone. After sperm leave the testes, they enter the epididymis, where they gain the ability to swim. Next, the sperm enter the vas deferens, where they are stored until the rooster mates with a hen.

Sperm formation takes about 15 days. The rooster's semen contains around 5 billion sperm per cc, about 40 times as much as that of a human. Once a rooster is mature and if he is maintained properly, he will manufacture about 35,000 sperm every second of his life. However, just like the males of many animal species, the fertilizing potential of roosters varies, even within a flock. For example, some roosters are extremely fertile and create a maximum number of quality sperm; other roosters are subfertile and do not make enough good sperm. This variation in rooster quality is caused by management, environment, nutrition, and genetics.

The hen does not produce nearly as many eggs as the rooster produces sperm, but during her 40 weeks of production, the broiler breeder hen lays about 180 eggs. Egg formation requires about 25 hours. Since egg formation requires more than 24 hours, even the best hens cannot lay an egg every day in succession throughout their productive life. As is the case with roosters, some hens are more productive than others, and management has a major impact on variability among hens.
The hen's reproductive system can be divided into two major components: the ovary and the oviduct. The ovary produces the egg yolk. The oviduct adds the white, shell membranes, and shell to the yolk to complete egg formation.

The hen has only one ovary, which is on the left side of her abdomen. The ovary has several thousand ova (egg yolks) in different stages of development and looks like a bunch of grapes. Very immature yolks contain only genetic material from the hen, and as the yolks grow to around 1 mm in diameter, they become white. If the hen is managed properly, many of these developing egg yolks will mature in about 19 days into large, 35 mm, yellow yolks. As the egg yolk develops it will get water, sugars, fats, proteins, vitamins, and minerals from the hen's blood. These are all necessary for the embryo to develop. The egg yolk is surrounded by the perivitelline membrane. This keeps all of these nutrients in a ball-shaped package. One particularly visible region of the perivitelline membrane is the germinal disc. The germinal disc is a small white dot about half the size of a pencil eraser on the surface of the yellow egg yolk. Fertilization takes place here, and embryonic development begins.

When the egg yolk is mature, it leaves the ovary, and within 20 minutes it is captured by the infundibulum, the first part of the oviduct. Here fertilization takes place. Following mating, sperm enter the hen's oviduct and are stored within sperm storage glands. Only sperm that can swim will enter these sperm storage sites. These glands can store more than half a million sperm. Sperm can remain alive in these glands and fertilize eggs for up to 3 weeks.A hen will have maximum fertility for only about 3 to 4 days after one mating. For this reason, the male-to-female ratio in a flock must be enough to ensure mating of every hen every 3 days or so. Sperm do not break through the eggshell. Instead they travel up the oviduct to the infundibulum to join with the egg yolk.

The sperm bind to the perivitelline membrane and make a hole as they enter the egg. Hundreds of sperm may enter the yolk. As a matter of fact, the more sperm that enter the yolk, the more likely the egg will be fertilized. Around 30 sperm must enter the egg near the germinal disc to insure a 95 percent chance of fertilization. While it is true that only one sperm is necessary to fertilize an egg, the probability of an egg's being fertilized by only one sperm's reaching and penetrating it is very low.

After about 15 minutes, the yolk leaves the infundibulum (fertilized or not) and receives the egg white, shell membranes, and shell over the next several hours from the magnum, isthmus, and uterus sections of the oviduct. When the hen lays a fertilized egg, the chick embryo has already developed for about 25 hours into approximately 20,000 embryonic cells and is a live, breathing organism. If this fertilized egg is handled properly before and during incubation, a healthy baby chick is the result.

DeWayne Edgin

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Re: Silvers infertility dilemma...
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2013, 06:07:38 PM »
Here is another article that goes along with what Jean was talking about. The hen has to like her mate some what.  Hens play their part
However, the sex life of hens is just as sophisticated as the roosters’. Since the roosters are bigger and stronger, the hens are not able to reject a mating demand. This does however not mean that hens do not have their favorite mating partners. Dominant roosters are those which have the largest combs and have the highest status in the chicken flock, which makes them also more attractive to the hens. Dominant roosters have often better genes than subdominant, something that hens are aware of and wish therefore to lay the dominant roosters eggs. But when the dominant roosters are absent, the subdominant roosters take the opportunity to mate with the unwilling hens. To prevent the hen from laying the unwanted eggs, they spurt out the inseminated sperm and therefore make the mating useless. This behavior is not only used towards subdominant roosters but also against related cocks. If a hen is inseminated both by a brother and a rooster which is not related to her, she uses less sperm from the related cock’s sperm in order to avoid inbreeding. The research can however not tell how the hen is able to recognize which roosters are related to her. Hanne Løvlie is now carrying out a research to find out whether this behavior is a physiological mechanism occurring inside the female, or if the hen actually can recognize and in turn choose to eject the ejaculate from brothers.

Roosters are able to control the amount of sperm ejaculated during mating. This means that they are able to decrease hens’ promiscuity without having to waste valuable semen. Cocks can decide which hen to inseminate through studying the comb of the hen. A large and red comb is an indication that the hen is in good physical shape and will produce strong and healthy offspring. But hens are also able to tell if the interested rooster is of good breed, if this is not the case the hen will squirt out the rooster’s sperm. This is done in order to increase the chances of laying the eggs of a more desired rooster. As opposed to human beings and other primates, hens do not get orgasms and therefore they’re not able to enjoy the sexual act. This means that the behavior of fake mating which roosters perform is only in order to get granted access to more hens and not for personal sexual pleasure.

Fyremare

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Re: Silvers infertility dilemma...
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2013, 08:47:54 PM »
Thanks DeWayne for the great info!

The update here is there was finally a small amount of success. I will regroup and be more willing to let them grow out longer next time. This coming year will be a year to raise chicks, and maybe next year too. I do believe they will be worth waiting for ...

I wonder if one of my girls knew her brother... interesting stuff!

DeWayne Edgin

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Re: Silvers infertility dilemma...
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2013, 11:20:30 PM »
This was on a web site and it was interesting. I guess they were studying them on these things. I have had two real nice black roosters that i couldn't get fertile eggs from. I sold one and i still have one. The one i have is huge and my hens are a little on the small size, so i am holding on to him till spring. I plan on trying all of my black hens on him and if no hens work, i will do tests on other hens with him. I had this problem this spring and i went searching the net and found this on back yard chickens forum.