Regaining size

[John]

If I use a black I assume I would put him over a blue wheaten female?

I would suggest using a wheaten male over a black female.  Then use your best wheaten male over the F1 pullets.  
If you start with a black male over wheaten females you could be bringing in silver (or gold) from the black even if he doesn\'t show it.  By using a wheaten male over black females and then only using the pullets from that cross you will know that you have the sex linked gold (wheaten color) that you want.  
A percentage of your F2 chicks should be pure \"wheatens\" (e^y/e^y) with hopefully better type and size than what you started with.
I tried a black/silver cross a few years back.  I had a problem getting the silver males descended from that cross to show a good silvery white color.  I think the problem was that the black male I used brought in the recessive gold color.  If I do the cross again (and I may next year) I\'ll start with a silver male over a black female and then cross the F1 pullets with a silver male.  That should get me where I want to go quicker and make the sex linked silver/gold gene work for me.
Of course the black female that you use should be of the best Ameraucana type available.  Look for black legs on her rather than slate.  Slate legs may indicate she is part birchen (E/E^R) rather than pure extended black (E/E).  Maybe it doesn\'t matter, but I think there would be fewer potential problems with a E/E female.

[Mike Gilbert]

John, it was not sex-linked gold that caused your silvers to be brassy.    Sex linked gold would have made them brown in color instead of silver.    So apparently it was modifiers.  Any time an extreme outcross is made like this you have the danger of bringing in unwanted modifiers.   I have seen some pictures of what appear to be pretty good sized buffs.   I still think the better cross is wheaten with buff.   I intend to do that with my bantams next year to reinvigorate the buff line I\'m working with.  That being said, I do agree that the better way to go is to use an outcross female rather than a male.  The danger of course is that the female could be carrying the sex linked silver gene, which means the first male offspring would be 1/2 silver wheaten instead of regular gold wheaten.  Should that occur you could discard all the males of the F-1 and just breed the F-1 females back to full blooded wheatens or blue-wheatens.  

[Blue Egg Acres]

I do agree that the better way to go is to use an outcross female rather than a male.  

What are the reasons that it would be better to use a female versus a male outcross? Are you able to reach the goal faster with a female? Does it require more generations with a male but one will have fewer culls?

[John]

silvers to be brassy

They weren\'t brassy as I recall...they just didn\'t have the silvery white that they should have.  I feel it could be that they received silver from the dame and gold from the sire.  Silver is dominate, but without two copies of it the color is diluted.  Some unwanted modifying genes could have been there also.    
I recently bought a Lakenvelder cockerel and it is obvious he carries both silver and gold.  At a glance he looks to be silver in the areas that show be silver/white.  He has some brown/gold coloring where the white feathers and black meet.  The person that sold him to me has been getting Vorwerk colored (gold) pullets from her Lakenvelders and doesn\'t know where they are coming from.  I know from that that some of her males that basically look silver also carry gold.

I still think the better cross is wheaten with buff.

I agree that using wheatens to improve buffs is the way to go, since wheaten is the foundation for buff and other genes are added to make buff.
Going the other way and trying to improve wheatens with buffs has been a project I gave up on.  If wheaten plus only one other gene were required to make a buff bird then it would be easy, but because there is more than one gene it is difficult to breed them all out to get back to pure wheaten.
As stated other unwanted modifying genes may also come from the black cross.  

reasons that it would be better to use a female versus a male outcross?

By using a wheaten male over black females and then only using the pullets from that cross you will know that you have the sex linked gold (wheaten color) that you want.

[Jean]

I know this is a little off subject, but these pullets are the result of a blue wheaten pullet with a buff rooster.  Where did the white in the tail come from Mike or John?  Remember I need \"Genetic Color Terms For Dummies\".

Notice one got nice slate legs from daddy and the other \"crappy\" blue wheaten legs from mommy.

[Blue Egg Acres]

By using a wheaten male over black females and then only using the pullets from that cross you will know that you have the sex linked gold (wheaten color) that you want.

Wouldn\'t Mike\'s suggestion (below) take care of this?

seek out a black or a blue male that shows some red (not silver or amber) feathers in head or hackle.  Otherwise you could end up with silver wheatens instead of wheatens.  

[John]

Wouldn\'t Mike\'s suggestion (below) take care of this?

Yes.  

[John]

Where did the white in the tail come from

My guess it is from what they call the Blue (Bl) gene (that I think should be called Splash...but that\'s another subject) from the blue wheaten.  Some tails could be white (splash) and some could be black, depending on what gene each chick inherited.  If you had used a wheaten they should all show some black in their tails.
I prefer using wheaten, rather than blue wheatens, in crosses like this just because the black color has better contrast with the other colors you are working with than white or blue.

[Mike Gilbert]

Jean, the buff you used in the cross was probably carrying the Bl gene that dilutes black to blue.  Your buff probably didn\'t have any black or blue feathering, so you would have no way of knowing it (Bl) was there.   So your pullets ended up with two Bl genes, one from each parent, which causes splash coloration.  Hence the white in the pullets tails is  caused by Bl/Bl  (splash).

[Blue Egg Acres]

I would suggest using a wheaten male over a black female.  Then use your best wheaten male over the F1 pullets.

I\'m considering trying both methods. Paul and Angela are sending me a black male with gold in the hackles that I plan to use over blue wheaten females. They also have a black female available. Is there any reason I shouldn\'t use a blue wheaten (versus wheaten) male over her?

[John]

any reason I shouldn\'t use a blue wheaten

I think wheaten, blue wheaten or splash wheaten will get you where you want to go.

[Jean]

I am bringing this topic back up to the top again as I am contemplating my options for improving size in my silvers and my future brown reds.

I know I want to use black birds to increase size in my silvers as I am sure they carry birchen genes already. (slate legs)  But, from Michael\'s previous post I am not sure if I want to use a black cock over silver hens or vice versa.  Has anyone else had the same results as Michael?  I am reading online \"Genetics of The Fowl\" and it suggests that outcrossing will result in varied different sizes and I believe that mating two different varieties would be considered outcrossing in this instance.

I have put aside a large black cockerel from Paul\'s lines as he is larger than any of the other birds on my farm, hence the name \"Mongo\", for my silver project.

But, I am contemplating using wheaten to increase size in the brown reds.  Am I way off base on that thought?  I am afraid to use black as I don\'t want to risk adding the silver gene since brown reds are gold and the whole sex linked results of silver.

By the way any replies given should be written in \"layman\" terms as I am still muddling my way through genetics for dummies 101.

Thanks,

Jean

[John]

increase size in the brown reds

I would use blacks for this.  As you said some blacks may already be split for extended black and birchen at the e-locus.  Brown red birds are birchen/birchen at the e-locus.  Now keep in mind the \"birchen\" gene at the e-locus is different than the name \"birchen\" as it applies to the silver & black variety by that name.  The birch and brown red varieties are genetically the same, except for one is silver were the other is gold in color.  To make the silver/gold sex-linked thing work for you use a brown red cock over black hens and all the pullets will be pure for gold.  If they inherit birchen at the e-locus from both parents they will be good brown reds.  If the black hen used was actually split for birchen, at the e-locus, and carried gold, as opposed to silver, some of the cockerels could be pure brown reds also.  The other way is to use a black cock that shows some gold (red) in his hackle or on top his head near his comb over brown red hens.  

increase size in my silvers

Silvers are based on \"wildtype\", not birchen at the e-locus.  If the blacks carry silver rather than gold (the sex-linked stuff) it will be a plus, so if you use blacks try to find a cock with silver (white) in his hackle or on top his head near his comb to put over silver hens.  If the black cock carries gold it could be a problem and if you aren\'t sure I would go the other way and use your best silver cock over a black hen with great type and size.  All the pullets from this cross will be pure for silver (the color, not variety yet).  Cull all the cockerels of this F1 generation.  The next year put your best silver cock over the pullets.   Do the same thing again and again.  

[bantamhill]

I would agree with John, use black for both projects.

Michael