Regaining size

[Blue Egg Acres]

I\'ve heard/read talk about crossing LF and bantams and regaining size within a few generations without difficulty. I\'ve not done this but have been plagued with some smaller than desired birds because I used a small hen a couple of years ago because she was nicely colored and had good type. I sold her this past fall but have a cockerel from her(his daddy was huge!) that is very nice other than the fact he is too small. I\'ve been afraid to use him as a breeder even though I need him.  Is there something I\'m missing here? Should I be able to use him? Is there something other than simply selecting his larger(hopefully) offsping for next year\'s breeders to get back the desired size? Thanks!

[bantamhill]

Barbara,

I know there is some \"real\" information out there and I will try to find it. I will share my experiences . . . a bantam x a large fowl gave hens that could pass for large fowl. A large fowl cock over bantam hens gave intermediate sized birds of both sexes.

My suggestion would be to use him over your largest hens and keep track of the chicks.

Michael

[Mike Gilbert]

Good advice Michael.    Remember, the large wheatens and blue wheatens were originally bred up from bantams by Wayne Meredith.    Some of those size modifiers could be lurking in the strain yet today.   I would definitely go with compensation matings in a situation like this.

[John]

the large wheatens and blue wheatens were originally bred up from bantams by Wayne Meredith

The wheaten cockerel that I have was sired by a cock I bought from Wayne.  He was huge and the son looks big to me and weighs 5 pounds.  Now I checked the Standard and see that cockerels should be 5 1/2 pounds and cocks 6 1/2 pounds, but I don\'t think most Ameraucana LF are as big as they should be (if you use a scale).
I have crossed LF and bantams before, but recommend it as an all most last resort (just one guy’s opinion).  The dwarf/bantam gene can haunt you for generations.  I don\'t have proof of it but wonder if there is more than one gene involved.  It is not worth doing if after crossing LF and bantam you have to make an outcross to bring back size.
One cross that I\'ve considered is wheaten to blue LF to help with both the size and type of wheatens/blue wheatens.  Mike originally made that cross in bantams to develop blue wheaten.  The LF black and blues have some of the best type of all Ameraucana LF and I think a really big blue with great type and lacing would be something to work with.
I have crossed LF buff and wheaten, but after seeing the F1 generation think it may be difficult breed out the additional genes brought in by the buffs.  I think this cross would be better used to improve buffs since they are already wheaten (recessive, but some may dominate - at least in LF buff) at the E-locus.  

[Guest]

The Blacks and Blues we had gotten from Paul Smith were all quite large and deffinately up to snuff for size.
I also noticed that Larry\'s whites were quite large too.
But I think that silvers tend to be smaller?
not sure why?  as our own were smaller to begin with and even his were smaller in size than the blacks and blues\'
It is possibly the breeds used to make them up were smaller??
we don\'t have a large number, and right now selection for color etc are important..but I did notice a few of the culls were actualy larger too than the ones with the better color..any yep..we kep the better colord ones, not the ones that were lager.

[Blue Egg Acres]

One cross that I\'ve considered is wheaten to blue LF to help with both the size and type of wheatens/blue wheatens.  Mike originally made that cross in bantams to develop blue wheaten.  The LF black and blues have some of the best type of all Ameraucana LF and I think a really big blue with great type and lacing would be something to work with.

What are the 1st generation results of this cross(What % of the offspring are blue, wheaten, or blue wheaten)? How many generations does it take before you\'re producing wheatens/blue wheatens?

[John]

What are the 1st generation results of this cross

I\'ve only concidered it so far, so I don\'t know.
Using a black instead of a blue may do as well, but I think a well laced blue would pass on the lacing genes.
I did cross LF silver and black a few years ago and am still trying to get the silvery white color back.  I only have one silver cockerel from that line left.  
 

[Blue Egg Acres]

I think the blue x wheaten makes the most sense especially considering it\'s been proven already. Maybe Mike can give us the basics on making this cross when he finishes up tax season.
Thanks guys for your input!

[Blue Egg Acres]

I think the blue x wheaten makes the most sense especially considering it\'s been proven already. Maybe Mike can give us the basics on making this cross when he finishes up tax season.
Thanks guys for your input!

Mike, I\'m bringing this thread to the top hoping for your input. I\'m specifically interested in knowing your thoughts on crossing blue with wheaten again. I\'ve culled heavily this year and am only keeping the 2 biggest cockerels that weigh 5.5 lbs each at 6 1/2 months. I\'m keeping 1 older hen weighing  4.4lbs and 7 pullets ranging in weight from 3.2 - 4.11 lbs. This last pullet is the largest female I believe I\'ve ever produced.  

[Mike Gilbert]

Thanks Barb.   I never read the last couple of posts on this thread because of the tax season.   I don\'t remember how many generations it took, because it was back in the late \'70\'s and early \'80\'s .     But I suspect it would take no less than three generations and possibly more.    If you make the cross, I would try to seek out a black or a blue male that shows some red (not silver or amber) feathers in head or hackle.  Otherwise you could end up with silver wheatens instead of wheatens.   I don\'t think it makes any difference whether you use a blue or a black to increase size - I would just select the best possible bird with great type and size.
Also try to find an outcross bird with a full, rounded chest.   We see a lot of wheatens and blue wheatens that are shallow breasted today in the large fowl.    Realize that with this outcross you may very well end up with males having a lot of hackle striping - the very thing you have been fighting the past several years.  Better keep the best of your present line going alongside these project birds - just in case.  

[Blue Egg Acres]

 I don\'t think it makes any difference whether you use a blue or a black to increase size  

If I use a black I assume I would put him over a blue wheaten female?

 Better keep the best of your present line going alongside these project birds - just in case.

Definitely! I\'d hate to lose the progress I\'ve made there!

[Mike Gilbert]

Makes no difference that I can see.   The only thing I would not do is use a blue male on blue-wheaten females, otherwise about a fourth will be wasters (splash).   If you go black to wheaten, you will still have the blue wheatens from your original line, and those can be crossed back to the new line once you have accomplished your other goals.

[Guest]

Mike,

You have mentioned (and I concur) that LF Brown-Reds are on the smallish side also, could this breeding tactic be used also to increase their size? Is there any interest in an LF Blue-Red?

Greg

[Mike Gilbert]

Yes, there is no reason a good black could not be used to increase the size of the brown red large fowl.   One would have to be careful about not losing the orange lacing on the breast of the brown reds.   I have not heard anyone mention interest in a blue version of brown red, but in some breeds there is a lemon blue which is nearly the same.   Modifiers were used to lighten the orange  of the brown red to a light yellow, hence the name lemon blue.   The dominant Bl gene alone would help to lighten the orange, but other modifiers would probably be needed as well.  For the next year or two I am going to concentrate on improving color and size in my line of brown reds without an outcross.   If it proves necessary after a couple of breeding seasons I may give it a try then.  

[bantamhill]

Greg,

I actually have a pen of lemon blue bantams I am working on. No chicks yet . . . starting in 3 weeks if they keep laying.

Michael