Author Topic: LF buff leg color  (Read 4794 times)

Guest

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LF buff leg color
« on: June 22, 2006, 12:36:54 PM »
...(Go to home page, photos, large fowl, buff male for a photo of a inhibited leg color. This is not Slate)...

John

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LF buff leg color
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2006, 02:21:53 PM »
You are right.  The shanks don\'t show slate.  I can tell he has the genes to have blue/slate shanks, but the clear/white epidermis is too thick to allow the black color to show through completely.  It seems to be easier to get dark legs to show properly on the LF buff females.  Some LF buff chicks hatched with very dark legs this year, but that may not be a good thing if we need to have recessive wheaten at the E-locus to get good buffs.  
That was the best photo that I could find of a LF buff male.  I don\'t know if anyone has a better bird or photo of it, but they have not sent it to me to use.
I cropped the legs off the bantam silver male\'s photo because his are definitely clear/white.  Yet I didn\'t have a better photo to put up.
Some varieties have not been developed yet, even though they were recognized.  In order to help develop them I have resisted work on new varieties.  
As I and other have said many of these are \"a work in progress\".

Guest

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LF buff leg color
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2006, 09:31:27 AM »
Dominate dilute and dominate white and wheaten are three genes that will inhibit the dermal melanin gene. To get a buff color, dominate white and dominate dilute are sometimes used. Dominate Wheaten is also used to make many buff birds. I would think dominate dilute is the problem. I do not know how the cream gene or the lavender gene effect dermal melanin but  I think the cream gene or the lavender gene would work better.

Tim

To learn more about chicken genetics visit the following web site:  http://home.earthlink.net/~100chickens/

Jean

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LF buff leg color
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2006, 12:14:30 PM »
How long does it take, or how long should I wait to see if a Buff\'s legs are going to turn slate? I\'m so impatient.....

I am working on the buffs also and I have many questions.  Which is worse.... poor leg color or poor angle set on the tail?  Or to put it another way, which is easier to fix in a breeding program? (yeah, I\'m a newbie)

The buffs really are a beautiful bird!  I have great color on my birds, but I have to work on size, tail set, fertility and egg color.

I would like to thank John B and Paul S for selling me some of their stock so I can improve my flock!  

Jean
Jean

Mike Gilbert

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LF buff leg color
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2006, 02:33:59 PM »
Jean, I\'m not sure what you asked when you said \"how long should I wait for leg color?\"   How old are your birds?  Because the buffs are based on wheaten at the e-locus, dermal melanin can be slow to develop, but it does develop in time.   My bantam buffs, wheatens, and blue-wheatens all are hatched with yellowish-pinkish legs.   Some take up to four to six weeks to turn fully slate.    Another problem (unrelated I think) is the thickness and transluscency  of the epidermis of the legs.    Those that have orpington blood seem to have a thick, not transluscent epidermis, especially in the males.   This prevents the melanin in the dermis (under layer of skin) from showing through.   In the picture of the large fowl buff on the website, I believe that is what we are seeing.   The slate is present underneath (where it should be), but the thick epidermis is hiding it.    This can be verified when one of these birds is butchered.   Peel back the outer layer of white skin and the under layer will be dark.

John

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LF buff leg color
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2006, 06:24:53 PM »
Quote
...The birds are around three months old now.  Some of them are noticeably smaller than the others.  Is this a different line of birds?  Also, some of them have nice slate legs (looking like mostly females) and some have a slate look to them, they appear kind of slate with flesh color here and there.
I will be culling the birds with off color plumage and legs in a month or so; so should I go ahead and get rid of the birds with the poor leg color now?
Also, my buff birds I got last year have great color & plumage everyone around here that has seen them loves them.  My problem with my birds has been the poor fertility, egg color, size and the tail set being slightly off.  My lines are pretty docile, they have great leg color...Do you think I would have better luck improving the leg color by breeding your bigger pullets with my smaller roos?


I know you aren\'t knocking me or my birds so don\'t worry about what others may think.  Knowledgeable Ameraucana breeders know that really good LF buffs are rare and that you aren\'t buying show quality birds when you buy day old chicks.  Some may grow up to be show quality though and some will be culls.  With LF buffs we still have too many that end up as culls and need more folks like you breeding them up to where they should be.  
I used two main breeding pens for LF buffs this past season and used a couple really big males over my smallest females in one pen.  The other pen had females that were the same size or larger with males that weren\'t as large as the two used in the other pen.  I hope that makes sense.
Your cockerel, in the photo, has great leg color.  If he also has good buff under color and no white or black feathers I would use him over the largest good pullets from Paul and me.  Crossing the strains should also help fertility (besides alternating at least two cocks per breeding pen).  Maybe use the two largest cockerels from us, with some blue/slate showing in their legs, over the best pullets from your stain.   The following year cross the males from the one mating over the females of the other and the other way around, keeping two lines going.  Always breed from the best you have which doesn\'t mean they are perfect.  Compensation mating is important and I always keep it in mind as I choose which birds to breed together.  If the males are small, but have great leg color put them over the biggest females with blotchy slate leg color.  That is what I mean by compensation mating.  Someday when all those traits are looking good you will still find that the birds aren\'t perfect and you\'ll still want to use this same mating practice.  You can\'t make improvement to all the traits each breeding season.  Come up with priorities and goals for each breeding season.  Breed for buff color, buff under color, slate legs, pea comb, muffs/bread, eye color, type, size, tail angle, not too fluffy, egg color, etc.  Prioritize knowing it is an ongoing project that will take years.
The buffs are all very docile and that is a trait we need to keep also.    
Don\'t be in a hurry to cull just for leg color.  Read Mike\'s comments about that subject.  If you have a great bird but the legs aren\'t slate it may still produce many slate legged offspring bred to the right mate.  If its soles/pads are pinkish/white and you can see some blue/slate in the shanks/legs it could be a valuable breeder to you.

Mike Gilbert

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LF buff leg color
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2006, 09:32:58 PM »

John, is that last pic one of yours?   Maybe it should replace the LF Buff male currently on the pictures link so as not to confuse some folks?   This one shows excellent shank color.

Jean

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LF buff leg color
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2006, 11:00:26 PM »
Mike, that is one of my buff roos.  B) He is out of McKinney stock and I had to do a lot of cullling to find him. I am very proud of him!  He has a roost mate that is very similar except his tail is shorter.

He is what I plan to cross my pullets from John and Paul with.  I have decided that I am going to breed for size and plumage color first.  I have quite a few nice pullets out in the garden, so I think I can really work on those two items first.  

As I was staring at all my lovely birds, it occured to me that I may even have a couple  breeding trios that I could sell.  I also have some nice cockerels and pullets from my starter flock.

Jean  :D

Attached is the other roo...  You may use any of my pictures also for the web site.
Jean

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LF buff leg color
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2006, 11:08:57 PM »
My photo is too large and I cannot make it small enough.  I guess we\'ll have to use our imagination.  Same color rooster, shorter tail .  HE HE

Jean
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John

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LF buff leg color
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2006, 10:20:41 AM »
Quote
Maybe it should replace the LF Buff male currently on the pictures link

I replaced the one I had with him.
His shank color is great, but he appears to be on the small side as Jean said that is a problem with her buffs.  I would guess that he is at least 1/4 bantam.  The cross to bantam would bring down the size and improve leg color.  I used a bantam buff male several years ago on my LF buff females.  The problem with it is trying to get the size back after such a cross.
If someone wants to start from scratch to breed LF buffs I would suggest crossing LF buff Orpingtons with LF buff laced Polish then take the F1 birds and cross them with bantam buff Ameraucanas.  Breed the best of the F2 birds together and keep selecting for the best.
When I started LF buffs Mike and I were still developing the bantam buffs.