Splash Pics

[John]

Johnny\'s bird is the result of a wheaten and white cross.  The white bird must have carried dominate white, resulting in the red pyle color.
If someone wants to breed for red pyle you may want to use wild-type (e+) as a bases at the E-locus rather than recessive wheaten (e^y).  The males look alike, but the females have different patterns.  From what I read a red pyle would be wild-type (like the Ameraucana silvers), lack hackle & saddle stripping (duckwing), have gold, mahogany and dominate white.  I accidentally breed one about 25 years ago when I used a bird that was dominate white over an Ameraucana.
Some strains of white may carry both recessive and dominate white & some strains of wheaten may carry both recessive and dominate wheaten.  Without test mating it is difficult to tell the difference.
White and Splash are quite different colors genetically.  I know some say blues may come from crossing black to white, but they must not be \"pure\".  All the offspring should be black from that cross.  Black to splash yields all blues.  The same with a wheaten to splash wheaten.  They will produce all blue wheatens.  Wheaten to white could yield a variety of different colored offspring.  A lot would hinge on if the wheaten (E-locus) is recessive or dominate and what pattern genes (E-locus) the white may have and is hiding under it\'s color and if the white color gene is recessive or dominate, etc.  

[Johnny Parks]

Hi Mike, I wrote a letter to you a while back inquiring about these birds before I ever got my computer.  I did have hens then and something got in the pen and killed all of the hens.  I only have the rooster now.  One of the hens was solid white with probably two black feathers in her entire body, two other hens looked exactly like the hen \"blanch\" in an earlier posting on this same page.  The other two hens looked like \"blanch\" except they had red beards, muffs, heads, neck and breast.  About 90% of the hens bodies were white.  The two hens with the redder heads, neck and breast, beards and muffs, looked like owls instead of chickens.  Scroll up and look at \"blanch\" and you will see a similar hen to what my hens looked like.  Johnny

[Johnny Parks]

Thanks John for a wonderful explanation of what might have occurred that brought about this bird.  A lot of the information currently is above my understanding.  I will study up and attempt to understand more about this.  I do understand this much, that the stock that I bred from should have produced a splash wheaten.  Because of possible genetic changes in the breeding stock the matings produced my red pyle bird.  It is a little confusing still, but at least now I know I should refer to him as a red pyle ameraucana (?) rather than a splash wheaten ameraucana because he is a little different genetically than a splash wheaten.  At least now I know from your experience of breeding one 25 years ago, and an earlier post on this page by Mike suggest that he too has seen a version of the pyle ameraucana bird.  It happens!  NOW, do you have any breeding tips for me at this point?  I do not have any hens.  I no longer have the wheaten stock or white stock.  Should I just try to purchase a splash wheaten hen or blue splash wheaten hen for him and be settled at that, or should I try to attempt to produce others like him.  If the later, then what breeding tips for that.  I just enjoy the beauty of the bird so much.  I would never part with him. Glad to finally know to call him a red pyle ameraucana.  Still I wonder how to do the bird and this color justice?  Thank you all for your input.  I apprecite and want to learn from any advice.  Johnny

[Johnny Parks]

I think my red pyle guy should ask \"blanch\" for a date.

[Johnny Parks]

Folks, please scrap my idea on my earlier post of how I thought a splash wheaten is bred.  I do not know anything about splash wheatens.  I\'ve only saw a picture today for the first time, thanks to Mrs. Barbara.  I am trying to learn.  The postings have taught me that my bird is not splash wheaten.  That is what I wanted to know.  Thanks to all.  Johnny

[Mike Gilbert]

Black to white crosses may or may not yield blue, and it depends upon whether the white bird also carries the dominant BL (blue) gene in addition to two copies of recessive white.    Recessive whites (which white Ameraucanas are/should be) can cover over many other color genes.   Other desireable color genes to be strived for in producing great whites (without brassiness) inclue sex linked barring, sex linked silver, and BL.    All of these will help to produce good, clean whites.    The effect is cumulative;  the more of these you have present in your flock, the more your whites will start off and stay a nice snow white.   Maybe there are some color experts out there that can name some other helpful genes in producing whites?    

Johnny, for your rooster I would try to find  B.B. Red Ameraucana (non-standard color) female(s).   If you can\'t find any of those, go with silver.    The female offspring from your red pyle (at least some of them) with silver females, should yield some red pyle pullets.   Then mate those pullets back to their sire, and you will have a good start for a  line of red pyles.   Good luck!

[John]

go with silver

Genetically Ameraucana silvers are the closest to red pyle.  They have the same patterns - both males and females.  The trick is to change the black feathers white and white feathers red.

[Johnny Parks]

Hey Guys, thanks for all of the advice.  I will put some thought into this before I attempt it.  I guess if I do I should get some stock of silver bantam and silver standard and go both ways.  The Pyle is a great medium sized bird and could breed either way just fine.  Thank you all for your help.

[Guest]

Beautiful birds!! I have 2 cockerals (father & son) who are nearly identical to the splash wheatens John & Barbara posted.  Hoping for some pullets to breed them to in spring.

[bantamhill]

The Old English references I have suggest that the male splash wheaten should be shown as a red pyle. I agree that to get the correct red pyle genetics one would what to use silver as a starting point in Ameraucana.

Michael

[John]

suggest that the male splash wheaten should be shown as a red pyle.

I don\'t know why they would.  Even though the feather patterns are the same the area that is white on a red pyle is splash (white with splashes of blue/gray) on splash wheatens.

[Mike Gilbert]

I don\'t think splash wheaten males would stand much of a chance in a class of real red pyles.    The red pyles should not have any blue splotches in the white areas.   From a personal standpoint, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this, I think a good wheaten or blue wheaten is much more attractive.   Maybe that is why there are no breeds (at least none that I am aware of) that have splash wheaten as a standard variety.    That being said, splash wheatens can be useful in mating with straight wheatens to produce all blue wheaten progeny.  

[bantamhill]

I find some of the things in the Old English books interesting and thought provoking! The genetics may be totally different between the two breeds, but that being said it is interesting to ponder. I think the splashes may really be showing the \"dirty laundry\" from the genetic side of things. I will stop there, but I do find this completely interesting!

Michael

[Mike Gilbert]

That\'s an interesting way to put it Michael.   We should probably  explain to readers here that pyle is based on the dominant white gene superimposed on wild type (BBRed), since dominant white does not suppress red very well but does suppress black pigment very well.   Splash wheaten is caused by two copies of the dominant BL (blue) gene, and does not do a great job of suppressing black pigment.  It really doesn\'t suppress red much at all.  So the genetics of pyle and splash wheaten are very different.

[bantamhill]

I wasn\'t quite clear . . . by breeds I was meaning Old English and Ameraucana. Everything Mike said is true and I agree. My terribly unclear point was that in an ideal world the color varieties genetics of different breeds (Old English and Ameraucana) should be the same, but that isn\'t necessarily true. I suspect that some of rusty breast feathers that we see are really errant background genes. Maybe some folks with experience with Old English can share what they know and have observed.

If enough folks begin breeding splash and splash wheaten and talk begins of a standard and qualifying meets we will begin to understand more about what can be done with the splash and splash wheaten.

I plan to raise a few splash and splash wheaten this year to begin showing the varieties and I hope other interested people with show the new varieties . . .  varieties only gain a following if people show them and others are interested in the variety.

Michael