lacing on blues

[John]

From my earlier post:

I don\'t know that Co is present in any of my Ameraucanas, but did show up in a silver male over a silver/smoky(?) female.  The smoky must have carried it, but have gotten rid of them.

Check out the \"Chicken Plumage Patterns\" table on the Seller\'s site:
http://marsa_sellers.tripod.com/geneticspages/page2.html#t12
The way I read it they say \"Single Lace (as in Andalusian)\" is based on E, Pg, Ml & Co.
I hadn\'t read that before, but if I did I would have kept my silver cockerel, with Co, and put him over black and splash hens in the spring.  I would then cross the chicks the next year to see what comes out in the wash.  

[grisaboy]

The way I read it they say \"Single Lace (as in Andalusian)\" is based on E, Pg, Ml & Co.

I have read this before and it doesn\'t make sense to me.  This is the same nomenclature that they use for a golden laced or silver laced bird.  I think the CO gene is what gives the gold or white background color to a laced bird.  If you have a blue bird with E, Pg, Ml, Co you should get blue laced red not a better laced blue. I believe you need to leave the Co out of this recipe for a solid blue bird.

Curtis

[Jean]

So,

Has anyone just tried to cross breed their blue ameraucanas with an andalusian to see what they get?  I couldn\'t tell from the research data what types of chickens they crossed; it didn\'t appear to me to be an andalusian.  Am I wrong?  I need layman terms to understand this genetic coloring and pattern stuff.

I think I may purchase an andalusian pullet/hen and try my own experiment as I need more layers anyway.

Jean

[grisaboy]

Has anyone just tried to cross breed their blue ameraucanas with an andalusian to see what they get?

Personnally, I think this would be the best approach.

Curtis

[Guest]

I do not see many birds except what I see in forums and I sure have not seen any with \"proper\"lacing, Andalusians included ... have you?

[Mike Gilbert]

Rose,
I did cross in a well laced, white shanked blue bantam Sumatra a couple of years back.   I am getting some well laced blue Ameraucana bantams now.   Should have enough to share some by this time next year.   As far as I know the only additional gene introduced via the Sumatra cross was Pg (pattern gene).

[Johnny Parks]

I am attempting to post a link of what I believe to be British blue orpingtons.  Is this the type of lacing that needs to be achieved within the blue variety of ameraucana?

http://www.orpington.nl/nieuwe_fotoalbumbestanden/PRISCILLA/priscilla%20Middleton.html  

[Mike Gilbert]

Johnny,
At first I thought you were referring to the self blue or lavender birds at the top.   Then when I scrolled down through the other pictures I found the Orps you were talking about.   Yes, and the nice broad feathers really make the lacing stand out.   Nice birds.

[redfox]

this is a link to  David Plant\'s findings on breeding blue laced poultry

http://www.americansilkiebantamclub.org/breeding_blue_variety.htm

look about half way down the page starting at \"The Laced Gene\"

Cindy

[Mike Gilbert]

To the best of my knowledge there is no \"laced\" gene as described in the article.   The geneticists I have read believe the lacing is caused by Pg, the pattern gene, in combination with other genetic factors.   Pg is the same gene responsible for the penciling of partridge and silver penciled and the type of lacing found in Wyandottes.   If someone has proof that a lacing gene actually exists I would sure be interested in reading the evidence.

[John]

\"

The Laced Gene\"

Part of the problem is that there has been a lot of progress in poultry genetics in the past decade or so.  Many books on genetics from just 30 years ago contain misinformation compared to what is now known.  Some of those outdated references are still being quoted.  
In another 10 years many of our questions today may be answered.

[Guest]

The only reason you would want columbian in a bird would be to produce a single lace on an E locus other than extended black. Columbian has no effect on extended black. The columbian gene restricts black to the outer edge of the feather. To get the black on the end of the feather( to form a lace) you have to have melanotic to add enough black to the feather and the Pg gene to arrange the black into a pattern. The blue gene does not effect the black ( due to melanotic)  on the end of the feather but does dilute the black (due to extended black) on the rest of the feather.

The lacing I have seen in my blue birds is actually not a lace but just edging. In hens I believe that the edging is due to the extended black gene and the presence of female hormones. I believe birds that would show the best lacing (edging) would be birchen. I have produced birchen females with  true gold lacing on the breast. Thats right a gold lace on a black feather.

I have seen very few blue birds with a true lace. I have carried out some experimentation with blue and have come to the conclusion that if you want true lacing you will have to add certain secondary pattern genes and not use extended black to get a true lace.  

If anybody wants to know more email me at tadkerson@netzero.com

Tim

[Mike Gilbert]

Thanks for the info Tim.   Gold lacing on black is exactly what the brown red pattern is, or are you talking about another laced pattern altogether?   Black golds also are gold laced on black, only much moreso than brown reds and with extensive shafting added in to the mix.   They are birchen based and sex linked gold.
Did you look at the pics of the blue bantams that Paul & Jean took at the Great Falls show?    Do you consider that coloring to be edging or lacing?    I have raised a lot of blues, but these appear to me to go beyond edging.  I\'m getting it in the males also, on the breast and wings.   Most of the time the tops (saddles, hackles & back) are too dark in the males to see much for lacing.   On the lighter blue ones you can see it some in the hackles.

[Guest]

The gold lacing is really wide so I imagine it would be like a black gold.  I looked at the blue bantams and I would say they have edging. The pictures are so small it is difficult to make a good evaluation. When I compare the lacing with that in  barnevelders and cornish, it does not seem wide enough to qualify as lacing.

Here is a picture of one of the birds I produced. She has edging. She was a part of my experimental crossing. The male in the picture also has edging. Lacing would be much thicker. The last picture is of the bird that has the gold lacing on the breast. I could not get a strait shot she was being uncooperative. I am almost positive she is birchen because she has yellow legs. If she were extended black she would have black legs. Her down color looked extended black, she did not have any red on her head . But she lacked the yellow belly- she was solid black and that would indicate birchen.

After I get a larger place I am going to work on the lacing in Ameraucana. I want to produce a blue bird that has lacing like the outer lace on barnevelders or sebrights.  The E locus and pattern genes one breeds into the birds are the key to getting a good lace.

Tim

[Mike Gilbert]

That last bird with the gold lacing looks very much like somewhere between brown red and black gold.   So I would concur she is birchen based.    I think the new owner of the blue bantams, Michael Muenks, would concur the pictures don\'t really show the true extent of lacing in the bantam pullets.   I would say they have one copy of Pg, and two would probably bring out the lacing even better.   I have raised a lot of birds with the edging you refer to, and these are definitely different.   Thanks for your comments, and keep up the good work.