lacing on blues

[Guest]

I\'ve seen(elsewhere) so much discussion about \"proper\" lacing on blues requiring either the extended black e-loci or ER/Pg/Ml; yet I\'ve noticed this \"talk\" doesn\'t seem to come from those breeding blues. I\'ve tried to tract down Andalusian Blue breeders with no luck. So, has anyone attempted to incorporate ER/Pg/Ml into their blue breeding and have you seen significant improvement in lacing, or have you found extended black by itself (as some claim) to provide real lacing?
Does anyone have a blue like this: (from feathersite, ha!)

[Mike Gilbert]

Rose,
I believe I have incorporated the Pg gene into my bantam blue stock via cross with a white legged Sumatra pullet a couple years back.   I have noticed a marked improvement in the lacing, but now am working on more uniform proper breed type due to the outcross.   Nothing is easy it seems.

[Guest]

Are your bantams on E or ER?
Never having seen a bird with the above lacing, I just have no reference for it. Do you think your birds are approaching lacing like the above or is that bird just one of a zillion?
I have some blue pullets from a breeder and they had E down. They are quite lovely, very typey but practically no lacing which suprised me as, according to popular genetics blue on Extended Black does not need any modifiers to have \"proper\"lacing. I\'ve been working towards all extended black in my blue flock, but it seems as if it will also need modifiers.

[Mike Gilbert]

According to some sources, most of what we call lacing is induced from hormones, not genetics.   To get the good lacing I am convinced we need to add the Pg (pattern gene) as well.
If you don\'t have it, you have to find it somewhere and introduce it to your stock.   I have some nicely laced birds this year, but I\'m sure most are probably hetero for the pattern gene.   Can\'t wait until next year when I should be able to get about 25 percent that carry two copies of Pg.   It will be interesting to note the difference in these, because although Pg is dominant (I saw improvement on the very first outcross) I\'m pretty sure two copies will result in even better lacing.   Time will tell - and like I said, you can\'t forget everything else just to improve coloring.

[John]

Here is a photo of a bantam blue pullet that I took this evening.  The darker blues show better lacing.  I\'ve been using very dark blue males over black females for a few year now and some males look black when viewed from the top.  The pullet may also have some of the Sumatra blood from Mike\'s line.  I introduced it to mine, but didn\'t keep records.  I just sell the ones that don\'t look good at swap meets as culls.  

[Mike Gilbert]

John, this bird has almost a charcoal cast the way it shows on my screen.   The darker the bird, the easier to produce hormonal lacing.   I doubt she carries Pg, but I could be wrong.   Most breeders of blue would prefer a much lighter ground color to provide more contrast with the dark lacing.
Do you remember when we helped Arne Schmidt pick some blues from Wayne Meredith\'s flock?   Arne picked out the lightest blues he could find - unfortunately they were poorly laced, and that is what he said he would work on.

[John]

Most breeders of blue would prefer a much lighter ground color to provide more contrast with the dark lacing.

Me too, but haven\'t had or seen one in the 25 + years that I\'ve bred and shown them.
I\'ve had plenty of washed-out blues and am now getting some of these dark blues that show some contrast with lacing.  Blue has never been a favorite variety of mine and one of reasons is that I just don\'t like varieties that don\'t breed true.  I plan to replace them with lavenders, once they are better developed, in my breeding pens.

[Guest]

John, the pullet has what many call \"edging\"
From what you are saying, I think I am doubting that blue on E will produce lacing as you would have seen it!
Can\'t wait \'till next year.

[Guest]

I did some experimentation with extended black, blue and lacing. You have to have melanotic and Pg to get a good lace on a blue and extended black bird.  My results did not support my hypothesis but did support the work by Campo.

I had to stop the work because I did not have the room to continue.



Tim

[John]

according to popular genetics blue on Extended Black does not need any modifiers to have \"proper\"lacing. I\'ve been working towards all extended black in my blue flock, but it seems as if it will also need modifiers.

Both Jeffrey and the Sellers website suggest that Andalusian blue is based on \"E\" and that is what we have been breeding from, although as mentioned there may be some E^R here and there in LF Ameraucana blacks/blues.
Sellers also says Pg, Ml and Co are needed.  I don\'t know that Co is present in any of my Ameraucanas, but did show up in a silver male over a silver/smoky(?) female.  The smoky must have carried it, but have gotten rid of them.
It is interesting that Sellers in referring to Co says \"Has no effect on extended black, E.\"  How can it be needed if it has no effect?

[Guest]

I\'ve read that Co is needed for proper lacing on other loci but I\'ve looked for an example of Blue with no luck so it seems as if it helps with restriction when not a black based feather. So indeed,  do we really need it?
I\'m adding Delawares (Co/Co) to my yellow leg test breeding pen this fall so I guess I\'ll plan on saving a few. If I\'m lucky and unfortunately we Konolds are not,  I\'ll get at least a E/eWh Co/co S/S the first round. Maybe we can talk Mike into sharing one of his Pg carriers.

[John]

I don\'t know if he still has it, but Mike did have a LF silver show the Columbian pattern.  It is already an Ameraucana, so would make a good cross to try.
I would have kept the one I sold a few weeks ago and tried the cross if I\'d known it might help.

[Mike Gilbert]

I still have the Columbian colored cockerel (L.F.), but he is slated for a swap meet Sept. 15th unless someone wants me to save him.   I believe Michael Muenks has spoken for all my extra blue bantams, so you will need to negotiate with him on those.   I do have some nicely colored blues this year, both sexes, but some have the smaller muffs & beards - all are bantams of course.

[Guest]

Mike, what is your opinion on adding Co to the mix? Any reason you are not adding it to your Pg project?
 I certainly am interested in the Co cockerel ... how did you get the columbian? After posting yesterday I remembered the Delaware is supposed to have barring as well which would decrease my chance of getting what I wanted.
Oh Michael ...

[Mike Gilbert]

Actually I never knew Co was needed.   And I still don\'t.
But who knows, maybe it came in along with the Pg gene at the same time?      The columbian colored cockerel came out of some of John\'s eggs that were supposed to be large fowl silvers, but he did warn me there could be some crosses in the mix.   So I have no idea.