Culling time/ advice and contacts for one up north...

[Guest]

Hello all!
I\'m new to all this. Pls see my comment on what color is this what will it be? I\'ve got 9 standard and 5 bantam Ameraucanas from May hatches at a western Canadian hatchery. From reading your info and some of your posts, it seems that they are likely mutts and easter eggers. They\'re quite attractive for all that- all mixed colors - several feather colors on same bird, though. The young cockerels are starting to act like roosters and it\'s decision time. I\'d really appreciate some advice on selecting by desirable charactistics to make my flock the best it can be for now.
I can send photos of the roo hopefuls if you\'d like to let me know what you think. I would also appreciate any Canadian links to breeders of standard bred Ameraucanas if you know of any. Of all the birds we\'re getting into, if I had to pick just one breed to get serious about, this would be it. They\'re so interesting and attractive!

Thanks for any help!
starting up the learning curve...
Lara

[Mike Gilbert]

A copy of the standard would be helpful, but we can\'t supply it since the APA and the ABA have theirs copyrighted.   In general terms, select for neat but not oversized pea combs, slate legs, small red earlobes in the males, stance not too high in front, 40 to 45 degree tail angle, bay eyes, medium tail length, medium to large muffs and beards (but not pendulous), no feathers or stubs on the shanks or toes, calm disposition, 4 1/2 pound pullets (24 oz bantam pullets), 5 1/2 pound cockerels (26 oz bantam cockerels), and no physical defects like crooked toes or misshapen beaks.   Is that enough for starters?   A picture is worth a thousand words, so that $5 handbook the club offers free with first year membership would be a great help.

[Guest]

Thank you!
That\'s great for starters! It also buys me (& them) a little time. We have plenty of separate summer accomodation so the hens don\'t get too worn down & out, but before the temp drops too much I\'ll need to see a more ideal cockerel-pullet ratio. My husband\'s more practical minded; I keep hearing \"Now that pretty colored one\'s getting kinda big... bet he\'ll be tasty!\"

Hint well taken. You\'ll be getting my membership application soon and I look forward to all the pictures and advice. Do you have many Canadian members? Even ordering from a hatchery across the border seems like it will take extra work and timing...

Thanks again!

[John]

Lara,
We do have members, like Lisa Cree, over the border in Washington that have some good LF stock.
The only Canandian members right now are Rob & Shelly Jackson in Ontario, eh?  They are a very nice young couple and have gone out of their way to import Ameraucanas.  I\'m not sure, but they may have chicks to sell in the spring.  You can contact them by clicking on northernblue520 in the Members section.

[Guest]

Thanks again! I\'m glad to hear that there\'re others up here.
So far, I\'ve only had contact with one other breeder in my province who participates in an egg swapping group and, from her pictures, it looks like her birds are about as colorful as mine (may even be from same hatchery.) The guinea keets we got from her are in excellent health, though!

For the membership dues, is a traveler\'s cheque ok or should it be a postal money order (US funds of course) ?

Would it be okay for me to post photos of my 4 LF roo hopefuls for members to comment or even vote on? I\'m sure I could learn lots from their comments as I have no breeding experience of my own yet. If so, is the poll feature on the board enabled for members and how do I set it up- or is it more of an administrative tool?

I\'m also interested in a source for a poultry genetics primer. Basics to start with! What traits are dominant, how color works, explanation of sex link etc. If there\'s a good entry level book on the subject, I\'d like to get my hands on one. My library system has rien zip zilch nada and the Storey\'s guides only go so far...

Thanks again for all your help!

[John]

I have answers to a couple questions.  Any check that I can cash is great, but due to the extra cost of postage we ask for Family memberships ($15) for anyone without a US Zip code.
I know this Forum has a polling option, but since I didn\'t know what it was for or how it worked I\'ve avoided it.  I\'ll check the admin. settings to make sure it is turned on.  

[Guest]

Mailed off my (our) membership today. In the meantime, I\'ll just keep sending questions.

Like:
Are color descriptions other than solid colors, somewhat arbitrary or at least subjective? My library does have Extraordinary Chickens (beautiful birds and photos!) but I\'m not sure what designates silver from birchen, wheaten from buff, and what qualifies as mottled, spangled, laced etc.
Much less how to breed for these desirable colorings. Also there seem to be huge variances in birds called red/brown and blue.
My birds look like a class of overeager kindergarteners got them to hold still long enough to get their fingerpaint covered hands on them.

I\'m really looking forward to your handbook and directory and any pictures members post.

and thoughts:
In reference to douglas graham\'s posting:
It might be useful to prospective breeders to have a user/buyer rating system for hatcheries. I would guess that most people- who don\'t live near or know someone who breeds or raises birds- get their start with hatchery stock.
If you focused on 10 major type characteristics, awarding 1 pt. each when a desirable trait is present and 0 if it is absent, you could get a best possible rating of 100 per every 10 birds.
For example, using the main characteristics from the above post, my 10 LFs from Rochester Hatchery would probably score somewhere in the 60 -70 range. They all look like Ameraucanas, but none of them possess all of the breed characteristics (or a single color pattern.) Hatcheries that are selling anything from a colored egg as \'americanas\' might not be too keen on an independent user rating, but hatcheries keeping and propagating good stock would!

My LF hens love me now. I weeded the strawberry patch and saved them all the slugs an a couple of worms that got in the way!

[John]

I know it isn\'t cheap, but would agree with Mike that you should invest in the APA \"American Standard of Perfection\".  I think you can order it from their website and we have a link to them on our links page.  
Also, try to attend some real poultry shows (not fairs) and take your camera.  This was the biggest help to me in understanding what different varieties are supposed to look like.
There are very few commercial hatcheries that sell what they call Ameraucanas that are close enough to the Standard to use as breeders to produce Ameraucanas.
I think most any ABC member would suggest buying from fellow \"breeders\" and not buying from a commercial hatchery.  That goes for other breeds of poultry too.

[Guest]

Let me see if I\'ve got this right...
Buying from a major hatchery could be like, say, buying feeder goldfish from a pet store (hoping they\'ll look like koi), whereas buying stock from a reputable breeder would be like deciding on koi and going out and buying koi... sort of?

That being the case, I might do like douglasgraham and take my purtiest birds to a local fair, see if I can bring home some ribbons and an empty cage or two , while saving up, educating myself and sourcing out some good breeding stock for next spring.

Another question:
Do reputable breeders ONLY  sell adult birds?
If so, how does one so far away from said breeders, with a border and import regulations to deal with- get the (breeder) flock started?    

I train with some University students @my dojo. I\'m going to see about getting a look and maybe some color copies of relevant pages of the Standard from their library. They must have a copy!

In the meantime, I\'ll have fun and try to get over as many of my rookie mistakes as possible with my feeder goldfish!

[John]

Adult, started and chicks are available from breeders.  Hatching eggs are also an idea.  Not everything is avilable all the time.  Check with Rob and Shelly about importing problems, costs and procedures.  They\'ve gone thru it and know.
If you are not too far from a breeder in Washington you could drive there to pick up birds.  You can also have chicks sent to a US Post Office, just over the border, and drive there to pick them up.  The costs for the birds can be doubled because of the vet bill, paper work, gasoline, etc.

[Guest]

Lara,

I have not been raising poultry for as many years as some of the experienced breeders here, so take my comments with a grain of salt. That being said, here\'s what I think:

Hatcheries are very nice for when you are first getting into poultry. They allow you to order a mix of breeds, which lets you get an idea of what you like and don\'t like. Most of those birds would not be considered \"show quality\" for anything other than perhaps a 4-H show (which is a whole \'nuther topic I may post on later.)

Once you\'ve cut your teeth on your first batch of hatchery birds, and figured out what you like and don\'t like, then you should consider ordering some purebred birds from experienced breeders. One thing I learned from breeding dairy goats is, when buying what we call \"foundation stock\", you will do better if you buy the very best you can afford. It\'s enough of a challenge to breed good animals from good stock, why struggle to \"breed up\" from bad stock. And a bad bird costs just as much to feed as a good bird.

So, I will echo what has been said here. Enjoy your hatchery birds, but if you want to get serious about showing poultry, you\'ll want to purchase some purebred birds from breeders. And if you\'re sure you want to focus on a particular breed, it\'s a good idea to join the breed club. That will get you the list of club members, and buying stock from them (be it eggs, chicks, or started birds) will give you the best chance at getting something worth showing. There are no guarantees in life, of course, but that\'s the road I\'d choose (and have chosen.)

Cheers,

[John]

Laura,
I don\'t think anyone could have said it better.

[Guest]

Thanks all!
I may be a bit slow on the uptake initially, but I am learning!
Laura, that\'s very true about hatchery birds for getting one\'s feet wet. I never would have fallen for Ameraucanas had I not gotten a beginner\'s assortment from a hatchery; I\'m glad I got some silkies and cochins too because good moms will be great until we make the big incubator purchase and learn all that is required to use it properly...

And truth be told, the initial hook was the blue (or colored) eggs. Should be sometime in late Sept or early Oct that I find my first one... I have to admit I\'m excited about it! Especially now that your club has opened my eyes to a couple of the possibilities of what could come from my future eggs...

SO, (another question and far from my last!)
these breeding programs or projects that some more experienced members are involved in, (Black Gold etc.) is the eventual goal to establish a new, stable breeding color type and one day have it accepted as a breed standard?

If so , how long does something like that take? Roughly, of course.

Does it happen often among established breeds?

Is there resistance (from breeders/ showers /club members) when one tries to establish a color type?

Because Ameraucanas are a relatively newer breed and still being explored and defined, does this allow for more room for creativity and perhaps more acceptance of a new standard breeding line?

Please excuse any misnomers or incorrect usage of terms like line, breed, type, standard, as I am still getting a grip on what they mean.

Thanks again for your guidance!
I\'m going to start looking around for real poultry shows and charging my camera battery. I\'m a very visually oriented person and I simply need more pictures!