Missing Varieties

[Guest]

Hello all,

I\'m have only been a breeder of Ameraucanas a few years, I have what I feel are some nice white bantams.  I love the nice tail and full body, plus the temperament of them.

I know in comparison to some other breeds Ameraucanas are rather new, but I find it rather  odd that certain varieties are not in the standard.  Only having 8 recognized varieties 4 of which are solid.  Having learned a the basics of genetics, I see with out introducing any outside blood there could be a few more basic varieties.

We have \"Silver\"  but no others from the duckwing family BBR , Blue Red and Blue silver duckwing can be created with out hurting type.

As well in the birchen family on the Brown Red is in the standard, and like wise Lemon Blue, Birchen, and Silver Blue birchen are just waiting to be standardized.

I know that all you breeders out there know all this and I\'m sure I\'m not the first to ask, but is any efforts being made to add these to the standard?  

Also I have heard some breeders claim \"if it is not in the standard it is a mutt\"  Do the rest of you Ameraucana enthusiasts feel this same way?

I would love to see these become standard plus start getting some patterns in there too.  Is anyone working on special projects like that?   I just want to see were the breed or breeders are headed.

 thanx glen

[Mike Gilbert]

Actually, Glen, the Ameraucana Breeders Club has taken an official position on what qualifies as an Ameraucana, and it is NOT \"a mutt unless recognized by the standards.\"    I believe the correct answer is found under the FAQ link on this website.
It says that to be considered an Ameraucana, a variety must breed true to form and color at least 50 % of the time.    This definition accommodates the various varieties that need the dominant blue (Bl) gene to manifest themselves.   If you look through the different threads on this forum, you will see that different breeders have or are working on such varieties as black gold, blue gold, silver blue (but not blue silver birchen), splash, birchen, and perhaps a few others.    In the meantime, some of our existing recognized varieties in large fowl and bantam need a lot of work.   There are not all that many of us, and some have chosen to perfect what we already have rather than embark on new breeding projects.   I hope this answers your questions, as we certainly don\'t want to discourage anyone from creating or perfecting new varieties.  The latter has proven much more of a challenge than the former.  Good luck to you - and Merry Christmas.

[John]

some have chosen to perfect what we already have rather than embark on new breeding projects

That was my stance for a couple decades.  I have since helped develop the lavender variety and yes it could be used with wheaten to create lavender wheaten quite easily.  Personally unless a new variety is going to help promote the breed I don\'t see any reason to develop it.  As Mike said many of our recognised varieties still need a lot of work.  Many of the 16 recognized varieties of Ameraucana were accepted in the \"Standard\" before they were developed.  

[Guest]

Mike, thanx for your quick response.  I appreciate your insight and agree that too many projects will cause all to suffer.  In contrast thou, I feel to improve any variety one needs options to work with.  To improve silver, other varieties of the duckwing family would be beneficial, keeping the e-loci the same.  As well as with the brown red family.  It may be necessary to expand the breed to improve upon it. The more varieties that are available the more breeders it will attract.  I\'m not suggesting everyone go running off in different directions to create their very own varieties, just to get some of the more basics varieties up to an excepted and agreeable standard.  And some day into the ABA and APA standards.

What I was hoping for when I started this thread was some discussion and pictures of other breeders projects.  

[Mike Gilbert]

Actually, there are only three solid colors in the standard, those being white, black, and buff.   The parti-colors are brown red, wheaten, blue wheaten, silver, and blue.    The blue we have in the standard should have dark lacing on a lighter blue base, and that is one of the varieties I am working to improve.   We still see a lot of self blues (not to be confused with lavender) meaning blues without lacing but they are not technically correct.

[Guest]

Mike, thanks for correcting my misunderstandings.  I could imagine people discussing if blue is solid or not till the internet has a melt down, I never thought of it as a parti-color, I do agree that one that is laced is a much nicer specimen.  

I saw on an earlier post that you had thrown a birchen cockerel are you going to continue that line?

I personally enjoy working with the duckwing family and would like to get started with silvers and someday have the full array of that family BBred, Blue red, and maybe Crele.

[Mike Gilbert]

B.B.Red and blue red are certainly attainable, though the males would look an awfully lot like wheaten and blue wheaten males.   It might be easier to go for light brown and blue light brown if using the silvers to get there, as those males would have the hackle striping like silvers do.  Plus they would stand out differently in the show room.  Crele could be a problem, however, as I believe the sex linked barring gene is an inhibitor of dermal melanin.    Ameraucanas must be white skinned and dark shanked, so dermal melanin is needed to produce the dark shanks.   A few members were working with large fowl barreds a few years back, but I don\'t think they were able to get any with the dark legs and toes.
Now to answer your question, I do plan to use the birchen cockerel as he is out of the black hen that took Best of Breed at our national meet in 2004.   Turns out she carries the sex-linked silver (S) gene.   He will be mated to a few brown red half sisters.   This mating will throw about half pure birchen and half pure brown red females, about half pure brown red males, and half birchen males that are split for (S) and sex linked gold (s) like their sire.   I should be able to start a birchen line of bantams from that start.  According to Proverbs 16:9, \"The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps,\" so we\'ll see.    Merry Christmas.

[bryngyld]

I have always been attracted to the colorful Easter Eggers.  They are why I chose to concentrate my serious efforts on the Ameraucana - because of the Easter Eggers I had met and enjoyed.  Creative people will always seek new colors and perfectionists will always try to improve.  I think the breed needs both groups desperately.  Many people do both.

I think encouraging more varieties will encourage new folks to join up to work on them.  There are so many more Easter Egger owners than Ameraucana owners.  I think we need to encourage them by appreciating (not necessarily accepting) their birds and encouraging them to breed up.  I think when we tell someone to start over with \"pure\" Ameraucanas, it knocks the wind out of their sails.

We love to denounce Easter Eggers as \"mutts\".  In reality, so were our \"pure\" birds once.  So, next time someone asks \"What kind of Americana is this?\" why don\'t we answer, \"Looks like an Easter Egger similiar to _____ variety.  Why don\'t you browse our website join us?  I\'ve got a rooster to sell you!\"  

[Guest]

Since we are talking varieties here, I would personally love to see a Mille Fleur and a Porcelaine developed.  I\'m considering beginning a project of Milles myself, just not sure I have the time or resources to accompish that.  And yes, it would be an ongoing project.  The Mille color pattern, when correct, is stunning, and I think it would serve to generate even more interest in the breed, but I think the real interest will always be in the colored eggs, regardless of feather pattern.

So that being said, I would like any advice regarding how to start such a project, but on a small (very small) scale.

I was thinking the first step would be to cross a Mille D\' Uccle male over Buff Ameraucana females.  I\'m thinking the feather legs, vulture hocks, and single comb could all be bred out in about four generations, is that a realistic goal?  As far as conformation (body type) they seem to be very similar to Ameraucanas, any opinions on this?

[HarryS]

kacres,
       Go to the feathersite and see if you can find the same color in a Belgium d\'Anver.  Could be less work creating your goal.  HS

[Guest]

Wouldn\'t the Rose and Pea combs be fighting for dominance?  That was my original thought process on not using d\' Anvers, but more info on rose vs pea comb dominance would be appreciated.  

[HarryS]

ksacres,
     Go to search here and look up Lavender, I believe John already answered that question.  If not maybe John will help you with that question.   He has a lot of experiences with that cross.  HS

[Guest]

I did the search and found what I thought happens, the combs-pea and rose-are codominant, and make a different kind of comb(walnut).  If I use the d\' Uccle, I only have two comb types, pea and single, if I use a d\' Anver, I have three to contend with.  Project is still in the thought process stage though, I don\'t have any of the base birds I would need.  I do have the base birds I would need to start a Porcelain project.  Hmmm...

I\'m working on Lavenders too, I have the first generation one pullet and one cockeral that are about three months old right now (I hatched out six cockerals and ONE pullet from several different hatches).  I also got a Bl cockeral from that mating-but that\'s another story.  I started with REALLY poor quality OE, and that helped with the tail set since the OE had a poor (for OE) tail set.  They also had slate legs.  And since my hens were homozygous for pea combs, all the offspring have pea combs, though they are hiding the recessive single combs.  My second generation will be a mess!  And with only one breeding pair, it takes a LOT longer!

I have to keep my projects small as I don\'t have a lot of resources for feeding 100 birds!  And I don\'t have a steady outlet for cull chicks.  Wish I still lived in Indiana, then I could just take them to a swap or an auction!

[John]

combs-pea and rose-are codominant, and make a different kind of comb(walnut).

Stubs from the d\'Uccle\'s feathered legs may be more of a problem to breed out than the rose comb of a d\'Anver.  Either way I think those varieties are based on brown (e^b) and none of the Ameraucana varieties are.  So far we have Ameraucana varieties based on the E-locus genes of  extended black, birchen, wild type and wheaten.  You would be creating one based on brown and I haven\'t studied it, but don\'t know of any reason why it shouldn\'t work.  If I were to create a variety based on that E-locus gene it would be partridge just because I like it.
I have enough projects going on, but would suggest crossing a porcelain d\'Anver or d\'Uccle to a black Ameraucana.  Second choice would be crossing a millie fleur d\'Anver or d\'Uccle to a lavender Ameraucana.  Mate the F1 generation birds together and select from there.  Once again the trick is to hatch as many as you can, especially of the F2 generation.
What say you experts?

[Guest]

Why would/might black be better?  I should say that I\'m copying a breeder that has developed a nice (very nice) strain of Mille Fleur Cochin Bantams and adapting it to-in theory-create Mille Ameraucanas.  His base stock was Mille d\' Uccles and Buff Cochins.  But I know every breed is different, maybe there are different things involved...

I\'m anticipating this being an ongoing project, which is fine, I need projects to keep my going.