Shafting in silvers

[Guest]

Ok, we have done well this year with our silver Lf. We are very please with the pullets we have kept and the improvements we have succeeded in. One thing I was wanting so info on is the shafting. This I know is an up hill battle. Has anyone had success in eliminating the shafting in the pullet/hen. If so how did you do it? What are you looking for in the cock bird to help on this? Thanks for any help on this.

Chari

[Blue Egg Acres]

Chari, I haven\'t eliminated the shafting but do have a few pullets that look very nice this year, with VERY LITTLE shafting. To be honest though, I don\'t know the reason(genetically) for the good results. The best looking pullets are from the pen with a cockerel I saved last year that has a large, funky comb but has excellent color - no brown/red on the back/wings AND no white in the breast area.  
Barbara

[Mike Gilbert]

It\'s a very difficult task.   Try to always use males that are out of females with the least amount of shafting, and improvement will take place, but it may take years.   This may require overlooking certain other faults, e.g., crooked toes or oversized combs.  Not necessarily, but possibly.

Mike  G.

[John]

I\'ve made some progress over the years reducing the amount of shafting on the silver females...bantams and large fowl.  I think out crosses to black have helped the most and that has been discussed on other topics here.  The out-cross to black was basically made to improve the type and size of silvers.  With it came some eumelanin enhancers (melanism) causing extra dark and black areas on some silver birds even though they had been bred back to e+/e+.  Maybe a melaniser helped darken the feather shafts which would reduce \"shafting\", but others need to be bred out.  I\'m a big fan of culling day-old chicks and if you know what to look for you can save a lot of feed and brooder space by doing so.  The chicks can be sold to those that just want backyard chickens.  With silver chicks cull those with black or extra dark breasts like those in the 2nd and 3rd photos below.  The top photo shows proper phenotype.  From the back side the chicks don\'t look much different.
Culling doesn\'t stop with day-old chicks and I continue to cull as the birds mature and lastly just before setting up breeding pens.  I\'ve posted head & back shots of two pullets...one is too dark on top of her head, has too much shafting and has solid black feathers on her back.  She evidently carries a melaniser that is causing black to appear in areas that it shouldn\'t.  The other pullet has much better color and will be used to breed from.  Note the nicely stippled feathers.    

[Schroeder]

Thanks John.  This is great info.  I never really understood the shafting issue, but these photos have made it much clearer for me.

[dixieland]

Thank you John!

[Russ]

Hey John have you noticed any major difference in the chicks that have black/really dark coloring on there backs between the chipmunk stripes as compared to the ones that are lighter brown when they mature? I noticed it in my last hatch, unfortunately I was to concerned about toe punching the breeding pair they came from and not which ones to watch just to see  :rolleyes: but the pullet to cockerel ratio from that hatch ended up being the same as black/dark backed chicks to brown backed chicks. It is probably just a coincidence but something I am definitely going to keep track of this hatching season. Because the pullets from this hatch also have very little shafting  

[John]

any major difference in the chicks

Some variation is normal, but I\'ve noticed the chicks with the extra dark backs are the ones with dark/black breasts.  I generally give all the chicks a visual  check as I look down on them and then flip them over to check for feather/stubs on their shanks.  I happened to notice a dark breast on a silver chick early this year and then started checking all of them for that.  The dark pullet that I posted, above, was probably from an early hatch...before I started culling the dark ones.  I don\'t think the different makings indicate sex, but don\'t really know either.

[dixieland]

any major difference in the chicks

Some variation is normal, but I\'ve noticed the chicks with the extra dark backs are the ones with dark/black breasts.  I generally give all the chicks a visual  check as I look down on them and then flip them over to check for feather/stubs on their shanks.  I happened to notice a dark breast on a silver chick early this year and then started checking all of them for that.  The dark pullet that I posted, above, was probably from an early hatch...before I started culling the dark ones.  I don\'t think the different makings indicate sex, but don\'t really know either.

Thanks for sharing all of this great information!!!

[jerryse]

You can sex striped chicks.The females have darker dorsal stripes thst continue onto there heads and males have lighter stripes that do not reach the head.I tried it this year and it works.I have to read it every time as I can not keep it straight from memory.

[Guest]

Thanks for the Pics John. I have some silvers and I absolutely love them. They are a work in progress with the combs on the males and common issues with the female feathering. It helps to be able to compare to something.

Jerry: I noticed the striping difference last year with some hatches I had with the silvers and came to the same conclusion, it does work

The only problem I have observed with the silvers, they don\'t get in a hurry to lay  

[OldChurchEggery]

So, I\'ve read on the forum that crossing silver to black can be advantageous if you\'re trying to improve size, type, eggs, etc. How many generations of crossing back to silver does it take to get back to decent silver coloring? More than three generations? I\'ve seen published somewhere a \"purity chart\" for lack of a better term since I can\'t remember exactly what is was called were F1 is 50% pure, 2nd crossing 75%, 3rd 87.5%, 4th 93.75% and so on. What\'s the breaking point for silver is what I guess I\'m asking.

[Mike Gilbert]

Ericka, if you keep breeding back to silver you will eventually lose the advantage of outcrossing to begin with.   I believe you would need to raise a lot of the hybrids and hope for a few with the right combination of genetics.  It would take a number of generations;  I did it with bantams.  Most folks are not willing to go to that amount of time and expense.

[bantamhill]

I agree with Mike G. The advantage of the cross will be totally lost if you cross back to silver multiple times after the black cross (essentially line breeding back to the orginal silver line). Instead you must mate F1 birds with the best characteristics (type, egg shell color, early lay, fast development) together and select from their offspring for the next generation for silver and the other characteristics. Take advantage of the hybrid vigor and raise a lot of birds and cull heavily. You can easily make several lines (see the wheaten post by Royce) at this point to make sure you have good genetic diversity and do not have to go back to the original silver line. Personally, I would retain the original silver line until I had the new lines established.

Don\'t forget to make sure that you are tracking the egg shell color of the males in every generation. I know, I am a broken record!

As a reminder, if you are crossing for specific characteristics like age of lay, rate of lay, egg shell color, rate of development, make sure the line of black (or other variety depending on what variety you are working with) you are crossing to actually has the characteristics you are looking for.  

Michael

[grisaboy]

I keep one pen of Birchen females that I breed to a Silver male.  I developed these Birchens several years ago by crossing blacks to silver and weaving in some brown reds. The primary purpose was to help get rid of red wings in the males. These birchen females are all split to silver so this pen gives half silver and half birchen offspring.  I do not keep the birchen males and the birchen females are selected primarily for type and egg color.  Some of my best silver males have come out of this pen.  
Curtis