Silver Ameraucana Selection Criteria - egg color

[Schroeder]

I\'m a member but don\'t yet have any Ameraucana (yet).  So take what I have to say with a grain of salt.  I think it is terrible that one would proceed on a breeding program without putting the blue egg gene at the top pf the list.  That is what differentiates this breed from all the others, and attracts many new comers to the breed.  No disrespect intended.

[Mike Gilbert]

There are other breeds that lay blue eggs, including one that recently came to light in China and a single combed one in the U.K., as well as \"Araucanas\" in many countries.    Hatchery easter eggers that lay nicely colored blue eggs abound in this country.
For me, breed type, productivity, and plumage pattern will always come before the exact shade of egg color.   But I will not use a bird in a breeding program that does not lay some shade of blue or greenish shelled egg.   That was not possible when the standardized colors were first being developed, so priorities have changed over the years.    Without all the proper breed characteristics you don\'t have a true Ameraucana.   We do have a standard to follow.

[John]

putting the blue egg gene at the top pf the list

We could be talking about two different things here.  Having the \"blue egg gene\" is what Mike is saying when he says \"some shade of blue or greenish shelled egg\".  
I\'m not sure about Curtis\' lists, but maybe all his breeders have the blue egg \"gene\", but the females may not lay the ideal shade of blue(?).

[grisaboy]

  Without all the proper breed characteristics you don\'t have a true Ameraucana.   We do have a standard to follow.

This is the point that I was trying to make.  Blue eggs is just one of 15 or 20 traits that I am selecting for.  Sure I select for blue eggs, but ut is not the main thing right now.  My primary goal this year is to get the male color stabilized in my silver bantams.  I jave been fighting red shoulders in the males for years.  I only had a couple of those this year.  In getting the silver top color I got speckled breasts on the males.  I think I can fix that this year.  Everytime youe concentrate on one area, you lose ground some where else.

I have one hen that I am using that lays a tinted egg.  Ameraucana heresy right?  But she has a nearly perfectly gray stippled back with almost no shafting.  This is very hard to find in silver females.  The only way to get better would be to cross to an OE Game which would give you the same egg color problems and take you backwards in type. By default, all of her chicks will not be pure for blue eggs.  I only keep her daughters not her sons.

All the males I have hatched from blue eggs.  Out of 12 pullets that I evaluated so far this year, 8 lay blue eggs. 2 lay green eggs, 2 lay tinted eggs.  Only blue egg layers will be kept.

In the next few years I should have the silver color for males and females much closer to the standard.  Then I will be able to concetrate on purifying the egg color.

Curtis

[Tailfeathers]

There are other breeds that lay blue eggs, including one that recently came to light in China and a single combed one in the U.K., as well as \"Araucanas\" in many countries.    Hatchery easter eggers that lay nicely colored blue eggs abound in this country.
For me, breed type, productivity, and plumage pattern will always come before the exact shade of egg color.   But I will not use a bird in a breeding program that does not lay some shade of blue or greenish shelled egg.   That was not possible when the standardized colors were first being developed, so priorities have changed over the years.    Without all the proper breed characteristics you don\'t have a true Ameraucana.   We do have a standard to follow.

Mike, I understand where you are coming from but I also understand where Schroeder is coming from.  Yes, there are other blue and green egg layers out there.  I don\'t know about the one from China or the SC one from the UK, however I\'m all to familiar with the EE.  

The biggest difference I can see and most notable one is that they are not an \"approved\" breed.  But I also understand what Curtis is saying and from what I\'ve read he\'s light-years ahead of me in genetics.  It\'s likely that I will never catch up to most of you in the genetics department. And from what I\'ve read the Silver variety is in much need of work.  

But I can tell you that the thing that drew me to the Ameraucana and to the ABC is the work that was done to get the breed accepted AND that it is a blue egg layer.  I am STILL WAITING on the new SOP to come out so I don\'t have one yet and therefore I don\'t know with certainty whether the SOP says an Ameraucana \"must\" lay a blue egg or not.  I have read both - that it does not specifically state that and that it does not.  So what is the answer?  Does it or not?  Does the SOP specifically address the issue of egg color?

I think the issue of blue egg color has been discussed fairly recently on ABC and there are some that would propose changing that which would allow EEs to be recognized.  It seems that the general consensus was the same as mine and that that should not happen.

So, that\'s just my two-cents worth.  Just MHO.  If having a blue egg does not remain a priority, then what separates the bird in question from an EE?

Btw, it\'s been awhile since I\'ve been to the Forum.  Would like to say that I hope everyone had a blessed Christmas and brought the New Year in with a bang.  Though I never made a penny last year at my job, I\'m thankful for all of what did and did not happen.  And it\'s looking like that may change this month.  

Now if I can just get my Ameraucanas to start laying!  

God Bless,

[Mike Gilbert]

Royce, read the standard again, specifically the preface.   Under \"Economic Qualities\" it reads, \". . fowl for the production of meat and eggs, the latter having distinctive blue shell coloration.\"    I personally worked with Prof. John Skinner of the University of Wisconsin, chairman of the Standard Revision Committee at the time, on the descriptions.
I don\'t know how it could be more clearly stated that Ameraucana  egg shells are to be blue.   This language is not appropriate under the description sections, as judges can\'t be expected to judge egg color in the showroom.
You also ask,  \"What seperates the EE from Ameraucana if not shell color?\"
Since some strains of  EE\'s lay blue eggs it is obviously not the shell color.   Ameraucanas breed predictably true with regard to shape, traits, color, etc., while E.E.\'s do not - because they are generally a hodgepodge genetic mix.   Most experienced breeders consider type to be the first priority for any breed.   I have had Leghorns that laid brown shelled eggs.   They were still considered Leghorns because they had a distinctive shape and plumage pattern.    I hope this helps, but if not keep asking questions.   And God bless you as well.

[John]

whether the SOP says an Ameraucana \"must\" lay a blue egg or not

By doing some \"searches\" on this forum you\'ll find more on the subject.  Here is a link to a topic from a few years ago:
http://ameraucana.org/abcforum/index.php?a=topic&t=196

there are some that would propose changing that which would allow EEs to be recognized

I don\'t know of any poultry breeder that would consider that.  It would be the same as recognizing all non-standard white egg laying chickens as a breed and all non-standard brown egg laying chickens as another.  The application for recognition wouldn\'t go anywhere with the APA or ABA.

If having a blue egg does not remain a priority, then what separates the bird in question from an EE?

I believe it is, always has been and always will be a priority for breeders.  Please keep in mind that it is just one of many characteristics to be prioritized and the level changes from year to year with different breeders and the varieties they are breeding.  

[grisaboy]

If having a blue egg does not remain a priority, then what separates the bird in question from an EE?

I believe it is, always has been and always will be a priority for breeders.   [/quote]

While I select for blue eggs, it is not the number one priority that I am working on now.  For me the first priority is what ever trait is the most difficult to fix.  I have struggled for years with red shoulders on the silver males. So that has been number one for me.  I used to get nice silver topped males with white legs.  It really hurt to get rid of those males, but I did not want to go backwards on the leg color.  
This year I have plenty of males with good top color, but they have white specks on their breasts.  There is always give and take when fixing a particular trait.  To fix the back color on the males I went backwards on the breast color.  
This year my top priorities will be, keeping the silver top color in the males, fixing the male breast color, get rid of shafting  in backs of females.
Although egg color isn\'t my top priority, it has definitely improved over the years.  Pullets with egg colors that I was happy to have a couple of years ago, are now being culled because the egg shells are too green.  Perhaps by the time that I get all of the plumage issues fixed, the egg color issue will have taken care of itself.
There is also a perception problem with egg color.  I can look at an Ameraucana egg and say \'My what a pretty blue egg.\'  My wife can look at the same egg and say \'My what a pretty green egg.\"  So it depends who is looking at an egg on whether it is blue or green.
I have a few shells that I collected from some broken robin eggs that I found in the yard.  That is the egg color that I am working toward.  My wife says they are green, but they look blue to me.

Curtis