White tail fluff

[Schroeder]

My two Wheaten cockerels look pretty good but for excessive (as in a lot) white fluff at the base of their tails, and some white in their beards.  How serious is this problem?  I know it isn\'t desirable but is it of enough concern that I should not use them as breeders?  If I use them, is there something to look for in their chicks so that I could cull at an early age?

[Tailfeathers]

White fluff at the base of the tails is a serious fault.  Not a DQ but it\'ll keep you off Champion Row.  Breed it out as you can.  Use them if you have too but cull like crazy until you got rid of it.  

I don\'t know of any way to cull early for it.  Would love to hear if others do.

God Bless,

[Korfus Kluckers]

Royce, I looked at the SOP and dont see a description as a serious fault. I always thought that was just the under down on the bird? Could you point me to the page in the SOP.

[Tailfeathers]

Christina, I\'ll have to get back to you on that.  I\'ll look when I have more time but I can tell you that I talked with Brian Decker and Walt somebody (both judges) about this some time back regarding Welsummers.

God Bless,

[Korfus Kluckers]

Christina, I\'ll have to get back to you on that.  I\'ll look when I have more time but I can tell you that I talked with Brian Decker and Walt somebody (both judges) about this some time back regarding Welsummers.

God Bless,

Yeah, if you could do that. I thought you were refering to Ameraucanas?

[Jean]

To my knowlege there is nothing in the SOP about the fluff.  You may want to get a closer visual inspection of the fluff and make sure it is a very light slate color.  The under fluff on a wheaten is supposed to be light slate.  You probably would not be able to determine the true color without handling the bird up close.

When I see this in a cockerel it could be an indication of many things.

1. poor tail angle
2. poor feathering that may change as the bird matures (is the bird in a large group where picking may occur?)
3. not a good transition from the saddle to the tail, it should be smooth and generally when the transition is not, see #1

It can take a wheaten or blue wheaten cockerel a long time until the beard color changes.  

I would keep your best specimens and proceed from there.

[Mike Gilbert]

The APA Standard says of the male saddle:  \"Medium in length, abundant, providing smooth transition to angle of tail.\"
Fluff at the base of the tail, while not a D.Q., does prevent that smooth transition the Standard calls for.   Therefore, it is another area to work on, along with many others.    In most cases there will be more important considerations in the culling process.

[Tailfeathers]

Ok, I\'m back.  Didn\'t get a chance to look last night.  Actually, I forgot about it.  So I went and looked it up tonight.  It\'s not under the SOP for Ameraucanas.  Rather, it\'s at the front of the book where it talks about general faults and DQ\'s.  Specifically on Page 32 under \"Tail\" and it applies to all breeds except it only talks about \"parti-colored varieties\".  This would be anything but solid colored birds.

So that begs the question, \"What about solid colored birds?  Is it a deduction?\"  My guess is yes and here\'s why.  Below is a quote from someone on BYC that probably better explains it than I can:

\"Kim, The white fluff is actually part of the tail covert. It is my belief that it is connected to the white undercolor and the white in wing and tail. Next time you have a Male with this white fluff in any breed catch him up and look at the tail covert and you will see that the white is just coming up the covert further than is required. If it was the proper color would not make a difference in how the tail looks. I have worked with this in several breeds and the only way to eliminate it is do not use these cottontail males, better to cull and move on to better things. My suggestion is to start keeping a closer eye on the undercolor on the males.\"

This is consistent with what two other judges have told me in that the fluff is part of the tail coverts and excess fluff is not only distractive but throws off the overall angle of the tail.  

But, just to be on the safe side, I\'ve emailed one of the judges and asked him to let me know if there is some other place where \"excessive fluff\" in the tail coverts is discussed and whether the SOP specifically discussed it wrt solid colored birds.

One more edit (for the 3rd time), sorry but I didn\'t see the above responses before editing the one I made earlier today.  Jean and Mike pretty much said the same thing already.

God Bless,

[Tailfeathers]

Received a reply from my email to that judge \"Walt\".  Here it is:

\"It would be a deduction in a solid bird too...and yes, it would look worse on a solid color. Sometimes these things are not where you would expect them to be in the SOP. Not sure,why, but we try to fix them as we go along. It is a defect caused by lack of tail coverts and/or excessive fluff at the base of the quill. It is a fault and in real life judging it is the kiss of death as most judges cut it more than they should. Dutch bantams are the only breed I can think of that sometimes gets placed high even when they show some fluff.\"

God Bless,

[greeneggsandham]

Question.  Are we talking about just white fluff being a DQ or any color fluff on any color bird?

[Mike Gilbert]

Question.  Are we talking about just white fluff being a DQ or any color fluff on any color bird?

Nobody said it is a DQ.   It is considered a defect.

[Jean]

I found the page in the SOP you were referring to.  It is a defect and it specifically says:

Tail:

(a) All parti-colored varities:
     1. Excessive white fluff at base of tail..... 1 (point cut)

Again this is why I asked to poster to check the fluff to see if it in fact was white or slate.  Slate fluff would be allowed.  It is only a 1 point cut, which in my mind is not a \"serious\" fault.  I would say it is undesireable in a show bird.

The poster has not come back to let us know anymore about the bird, so given that lack of detail we couldn\'t really say to use the bird as a breeder or not.

[Tailfeathers]

That is exactly what the SOP says.  The problem with that definition is the same problem with many descriptions in the SOP... what exactly does excessive mean?

Obviously the term is relative to who is doing the viewing/judging and will mean one thing to some and another to others.

Therefore I submit that it would be the safest and best to breed for a total absence of fluff - of any color.  Id\' be willing to be good money that slate-colored fluff would be just as big a deduction as white and I doubt arguing over the color with a judge would have much impact.

Notice \"Walt\" says it would be a deduction for a solid colored bird too - even there I don\'t think there is any mention of that in the SOP anywhere.

Put two birds side-by-side together, one with fluff showing and one without, and I\'d bet the one with no fluff would win hands down every time.

Now, I\'m a relative Newbee to showing poultry so take my comments for what they\'re worth.  As for my birds, I\'m gonna try and keep all the fluff out.  On the tails that is.

God Bless,

[Schroeder]

I found the page in the SOP you were referring to.  It is a defect and it specifically says:

Tail:

(a) All parti-colored varities:
     1. Excessive white fluff at base of tail..... 1 (point cut)

Again this is why I asked to poster to check the fluff to see if it in fact was white or slate.  Slate fluff would be allowed.  It is only a 1 point cut, which in my mind is not a \"serious\" fault.  I would say it is undesireable in a show bird.

The poster has not come back to let us know anymore about the bird, so given that lack of detail we couldn\'t really say to use the bird as a breeder or not.

I believe the fluff to be slate, rather than pure white.  Here is a photo, although it is hard to judge color from a flash photo.

[Mike Gilbert]

When tails are held at the proper angle (40 to 45 degrees above horizontal) and there is adequate saddle and tail covert feathers, the problem with fluff tends to go away.   Fluff is just undercolor that is not properly covered by the outer feathers.  The standard was written specifically to call for a \"smooth transition\" between back and tail so that breeders would raise birds without this fault.   How would I know?  I wrote the ABA standard for bantams and later edited/approved the standard for the APA as written by Prof. John Skinner, who was Chairman of the APA standard committee at the time.