Size in LF

[dixieland]

I am getting the impression from lots of folks who show and judge that \"Bigger is usually Better in LF\"
At a certain point don\'t you start to trade type and proper outline for coarseness and bulk when you get to a certain size? I have heard a lot of comments about birds being too small, but never too big... Do you adhere to the upper range in the SOP, or would you show a bird that weighed too much if his type was outstanding and he was a good representation in every other way?

PS---- Look Mike G, I am trying to bring op a non color discussion again!!!!

[bantamhill]

STANDARD WEIGHTS for LARGE FOWL

 

Cock………………6½ lbs.       Hen……………….5½ lbs.

Cockerel………….5½ lbs.       Pullet……………..4½ lbs.


STANDARD WEIGHTS for BANTAMS

 

Cock……………….30 oz.           Hen…………….….26 oz.

Cockerel…………..26 oz.           Pullet……………..24 oz.

In my opinion we need to make sure that the size of Ameraucana is meat and bone, not fluff . . . They are dual/tri-purpose breed - eggs, meat, and exhibition. We need to avoid birds that are fluffy and large looking, but not meaty. I would show a bird that was above standard weight by a small, but reasonable amount, just as I would show a bird that was under standard weight by a small, reasonable amount.

Michael

[Mike Gilbert]

For sake of discussion, let\'s say standard weight for a particular class of birds is exactly five pounds.   APA allows up to 20% variation from standard before a D.Q. occurs, and even then, how often is it enforced?   But in this class that means a 4 lb bird is competing against a 6 lb bird.  The latter is half again as big as the former.   Do you see something wrong here?    That said, I do think most of us would rather have the larger bird (but as Michael said - not fluffy), as it is easier to reduce size than to gain it in large fowl.  And I\'m not talking about my wife\'s diet plan.

[dixieland]

Thanks for detailed explanation and the laugh too!!!!

In your years of breeding and showing have you ever seen a bird that appeared to be grossly oversized? (not just fluff)

[grisaboy]

Although Standard bred poultry have standard weights, and as Mike said, 20% above or below should be a DQ, I have never seen weight considerd at a poultry show. (I\'ll bet you a cream filled chocolate doughnut that you have never seen a scale at a poultry show).  And size of birds are rewarded based on the current trend instead of what is in the standard.  So you have very small Old English Game Bantams and Modern Bantams winning shows, and very large waterfowl, like Muscovy Ducks winning because that is what the current judges tend to like.

That said, Large Fowl tend to be too small and Bantams tend to be too small so it is a natural tendancy to reward Large Fowl that are larger and Bantams that are Smaller.  I would bet another doughnut that an eight pound Ameraucana male that was otherwise sound would do very well at most open shows.

It is up to us as breeders to be aware of the standard weights and breed accordingly.  An oversize large male could be a very valuable breeder because he could bring up the overall size of your flock. We can\'t depend on the show room to maintain the integrity of our breed that is up to us.

Curtis

[dixieland]

It is up to us as breeders to be aware of the standard weights and breed accordingly.  An oversize large male could be a very valuable breeder because he could bring up the overall size of your flock. We can\'t depend on the show room to maintain the integrity of our breed that is up to us.

Curtis

Thank you Curtis     I have suspected this was going on and it is so disturbing....
In the dog world, we also go through size trends....Many breeders base their breeding decisions on what is winning. Although this produces lots of Champions in the short term, it really hurts the breed in the long term.. We lose a lot of genetic diversity and the gene pools become smaller every year!
As Director of Judges Education for my breed club, I work really hard to drill the importance of type and outline into my judges heads... Sometimes I liken it to beating my head against a marble slab, but when I run into them several years out and they show that they can select animals that exemplify breed type, it makes it all worth it!!


In the world of poultry shows what are the prerequisites to becoming a judge? Do the individual parent clubs for each breed play any part in educating perspective judges? I am not very familiar with the process at all..

[Christie Rhae]

We can\'t depend on the show room to maintain the integrity of our breed that is up to us.

Curtis

Does this apply to egg color as well?



Is there a way to breed more size into LF other than the obvious... only using your largest birds to breed?   I am curious how on earth LF was bred (bread?..sp?) created from bantam?

[Mike Gilbert]

Christie, I know the large fowl wheatens, blue wheatens, and lavenders were bred up from bantams by crossing them with large fowl.   Bantam blood was also used in the brown reds.
To the best of my knowledge no bantam blood was used in at least some lines of silvers, blacks, blues, buffs, or whites.  Perhaps John Blehm and others will chime in here, as they worked more with the large fowl than I.  I did develop one line of silvers, blue silvers, a great line of whites that was lost after I let them go, and brown reds in large fowl.  I networked with John on the brown reds and a number of varieties of bantams.  Bob Walchak has also been a great help in some of the bantam varieties.

[grisaboy]

Does this apply to egg color as well?

More So.
Other than the egg contests that the Ameraucana Club has at the nationals, egg color will never be considered at a poultry show.


Curtis

[Russ]

We can\'t depend on the show room to maintain the integrity of our breed that is up to us.

Curtis

Does this apply to egg color as well?



Is there a way to breed more size into LF other than the obvious... only using your largest birds to breed?   I am curious how on earth LF was bred (bread?..sp?) created from bantam?

I just read where they suggest better result\'s to increasing size by choosing large hen\'s to breed from more so than the Male\'s. Test\'s seem to prove more gain when large  hen\'s were used in comparison to just focusing on using large cock\'s or cockerel\'s to improve size. Even when smaller cock\'s or cockerel\'s were used. But I am far from a Guru so I am interested what the pro\'s say. I really like working with the Silver\'s and that is one of there biggest downfall\'s

[Christie Rhae]

I just read where they suggest better result\'s to increasing size by choosing large hen\'s to breed from more so than the Male\'s. Test\'s seem to prove more gain when large  hen\'s were used in comparison to just focusing on using large cock\'s or cockerel\'s to improve size. Even when smaller cock\'s or cockerel\'s were used. But I am far from a Guru so I am interested what the pro\'s say. I really like working with the Silver\'s and that is one of there biggest downfall\'s

Interesting! That is a good tip.  

[dixieland]

I am working on size in my silver hens.. The  cocks are big, but the girls
are still smaller then I want.. They are in the 5# 8oz range....
The challenge is fun though, I agree with Russ!!

[John]

Perhaps John Blehm and others will chime in here,

Much of the history behind the varieties I developed, co-developed and helped improve can be found buried on this forum.  Mike developed the Ameraucana breed and the first variety...bantam wheaten.  Wayne Meredith bred up the first LF wheatens using bantams from Mike the way I understand it and all the LF varieties that Wayne worked on had good size from what I saw during my one visit to his place years ago.
Here is a link to an older topic that is close to this one and it has links to others that may be worth reading.


http://ameraucana.org/abcforum/index.php?a=topic&t=116

[Christie Rhae]

Perhaps John Blehm and others will chime in here,

Much of the history behind the varieties I developed, co-developed and helped improve can be found buried on this forum.  Mike developed the Ameraucana breed and the first variety...bantam wheaten.  Wayne Meredith bred up the first LF wheatens using bantams from Mike the way I understand it and all the LF varieties that Wayne worked on had good size from what I saw during my one visit to his place years ago.
Here is a link to an older topic that is close to this one and it has links to others that may be worth reading.


http://ameraucana.org/abcforum/index.php?a=topic&t=116

Thank you for the link!  I run all kinds of searches but maybe I am not using the right words cuz sometimes I have a hard time finding the info I would like.
This forum is such a wealth of info if you just know where to find it.  lol!

[jerryse]

Perhaps John Blehm and others will chime in here,

Much of the history behind the varieties I developed, co-developed and helped improve can be found buried on this forum.  Mike developed the Ameraucana breed and the first variety...bantam wheaten.  Wayne Meredith bred up the first LF wheatens using bantams from Mike the way I understand it and all the LF varieties that Wayne worked on had good size from what I saw during my one visit to his place years ago.
Here is a link to an older topic that is close to this one and it has links to others that may be worth reading.                                                                                        

http://ameraucana.org/abcforum/index.php?a=topic&t=116

 I also am working on size improvement in LF silver.I am using wheaten family Meridith bred roosters from my friend Denise at Paradise Found Farm.She got these roosters directly from Wayne.They were used on my LF light brown project hens last year.These split pullets are with a LF silver rooster I got from John when in Frankfurt KY in the fall of 2010.I am culling by chick color at day old to eliminate the wheaten gene.As a plus some will be blue silver.In 2 generations I have chicks of proper color.Will also eliminate any cockerels that show white beards as they grow [a wheaten charicteristic].I know Mike G. used blue to create his line of blue silver but I do not know how many generations it took.This may be quicker.Can you share that info Mike?I will add some chick pics later after I relearn how to post them.