Laced Blue Ameraucana

[Christie Rhae]

@ Heather

Yay I am glad you are gonna give it a try!

[grisaboy]

I am a contrarian when it comes to the genetic make up of the dark laced blue birds.  I\'m going to stick my neck out here and see if it gets chopped off.  I don\'t think the blue birds have Co columbian or Pg pattern gene.  I don\'t have empirical evidence to support my claim, but here is some of the circumstantial evidence.

1. Here is a link to a photo of a blue old english bantam
http://www.bantamclub.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=4&pid=108#top_display_media

Decent lacing if not quite up to Blue Andalusian standards.
Blue Old English Game bantams do not have Pg.  If Pg was floating around the gene pool of the Old English Game bantams I am certain that we would have laced and spangled varieties by now.  The only laced Old english I have seen were developed by bringing in Sebright Blood.  Same with Columbian.  I remember just recently when they were developing the Columbian Old English. They had to outside the breed and it took many years to get them to the proper OEG type.

2. This next link is for a Blue Partridge brahma

http://norfolkbrahmas.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/3rd-march-2012-0041.jpg

Almost by definition, Partridge birds have the Pg gene.  If Pg is responsable for the lacing in blues then a blue partridge should have excellent lacing on the blue parts.  This is a beautiful bird (the male) but not much lacing on that blue breast.

3. Third is a Blue Laced Red Wyandotte

http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/105208/blrw-pics

What is the difference genetically for a blue laced wyandotte vs the definition proposed above for a dark laced blue bird?
To me it looks like they are describing the same bird.

The assumption that Carefoot makes is that there is only one way to make a laced bird.  We know that there are more than one way to make white birds.  There is more than one way to make a black bird.  There are several ways to make a black breasted red bird.  So why would we assume that there is only one way to make laced birds?

I am not sure what is the genetic makeup of lacing on blue birds.  I suspect that it has to do with recessive melanizers (sometimes referred to as recessive black).  
I also think that the dark \'edging\' that Mike referred to above is the genetic component that we are looking for.  We just need to select for a darker, wider edge.  Bringing in the Blue Andalusian blood is a good choice for speeding up this process.

There you have it.  The contrarian viewpoint.

Curtis

[Jean]

I am going to use my blue and black line of imported orps for now.  I am hoping that someone imports silver laced orpingtons soon.

I would much rather use a silver laced bird for this project than what I currently have.  In my mind when I read the description for blue birds in the SOP , I think of \"laced\" variety birds.  (distinctly laced in black)

I know we have some silver laced varieties already in the US, but I don\'t want to have to work on the yellow skin issues, cushion combs from combining pea and rose, or size issues.

[Mike Gilbert]

The blue O.E. Game above is not laced.   He has a little edging.  I have seen O.E. games at shows that actually did have lacing, but not quite as good as Andalusians.  The Wyandottes are laced, but they are based on e^b, not E or E^R.   I believe I started with blue bantams around 1978.  They were crossed with black, with each other, and with splash.  None of them ever developed true lacing.   Unless the necessary components are there the lacing will never magically appear.   Whatever those components are, they are present in the better Andalusians;  why not go there to get what is needed?

[Jean]

Mike,

I\'d rather try to fix egg color in my project than try to rid the line of enamel white in the ear lobes.  The wheaten and silver varieties still have this issue and how long have they been around???

To each their own....

[Mike Gilbert]

Mike,

I\'d rather try to fix egg color in my project than try to rid the line of enamel white in the ear lobes.  The wheaten and silver varieties still have this issue and how long have they been around???

To each their own....

Good luck.  There are said to be 12 or 13 different genes that cause brown egg shell, some dominant, some recessive.  Actually, it is good that different members try different approaches.   That way we end up with different strains, spread the gene pool, and help ensure the long term viability of the variety.  Plus, we get to see who reaches the end goal first thanks to the internet.  

[grisaboy]

The Wyandottes are laced, but they are based on e^b, not E or E^R.  

If you exchange e^b for E^R, you would not get a blue bird.  You would get a blue laced red bird with a laced tail instead of a black tail. (Like the laced polish).  I believe the same would be tru for E.

Curtis

[heatherscooby77]

Okay, this is one of my 100%  Blue Ameraucauna (7 weeks).  So just so I have this right, this is lacing and not edging???  I want to make sure I am seeing the right thing, especially if I am going to try to make them better!!!

My next question, do I cull chicks that don\'t seem to have any lacing???  For example my SLW  don\'t get there lacing until they are 12-14 weeks???

Another things I want to say about the chicks that are just feathering they look lavender? but some of them have the darker head?  These are from eggs that I had shipped to me.  Could the blacks maybe have been splits bred to blues and now I got semi-blues???  I can\'t call them self-blue or laced blue.  I might call them CULL!

[Mike Gilbert]

Maybe ten years ago I would have considered that to be lacing.  Not any more, but it\'s not too bad edging.   Look up the Blue Andalusians on Feathersite.com for a comparisonj.  I would give these chicks some time.  Not sure what you mean by \"100%\" blue?  All true blues are hetero for Bl.

[John]

I think it is interesting that everyone is quiet about trying to get true lacing on blue wheatens.  
As I read the Standard, I guess it doesn\'t\' matter...

BREAST: Blue, preferably laced with dark blue.

I think they could drop the part about \"laced\", since it can\'t be done and still maintain the wheaten pattern...based on what is accepted genetic science as of today.
History shows what is accepted one day is sometimes proved wrong (my disclaimer). :stare:

[heatherscooby77]

Mike, I mean it is not crossed out with any other breed.  Sorry for the confusion :-)

[Christie Rhae]

Well....
Here are my thoughts:

Ml/Ml Melanotic enhances and shifts black pigment to the edges of the feather.  This equals \"edging\".  There are some birds with very nice edging.

Co/Co Pg/Pg Ml/Ml equals \"Lacing\" (for our project).

I have seen birds, like andalusians, that traditionally have the lacing genes but their lacing looks worse than those with \"edging\".  
I had a discussion with someone about their andalusians.  The birds did not have any lacing at all.  But this person insisted that because andalusians have lacing that this bird had lacing.  I guess people do not understand that it does not come as a package.  Just because andalusians are supposed to have lacing does not mean they DO.  

So I guess we are back to the beginning.  For this project we must find the very best specimens we can of each breed.  The lacing on the bird we choose as our cross in must be very crisp black and shiny.

SOP says:

each feather distinctly laced with glossy black

I think a key word there is \"distinctly\".  

I guess if one starts with an bird that is obviously Ml/Ml and breed that with a bird that is Co/Co Pg/Pg Ml/Ml  then at least the Ml will be homozygous (my big word...heehee) on both sides and the offspring will have Ml/Ml instead of getting Ml/ml+.

This is my favorite quote right now...

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense

So, personally I don\'t find \"The Contrarian Viewpoint\" to be particularly convincing.  Thanks for participating though! It was interesting.  

[grisaboy]

So, personally I don\'t find \"The Contrarian Viewpoint\" to be particularly convincing.  

Ha! if I was more convincing it wouldn\'t be a contrarian viewpoint.

You\'ll be able to determine the results for yourself soon enough.  

Curtis

[grisaboy]

Here is another site to check out.
http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGA/Brahma/BRKBrahma.html

This is the Brahma page from Feathersite.
Lots of impressive birds with various laced and columbian pattern birds.
There are two beautiful blue colmbian hens down toward the bottom of the page.  Especially check out the pattern on the hackles.  What would be the genetic make up of these birds?
My guess would be e^b Co Pg
What would they look like if you replaced e^b with E^R?

What about the \'Blue Partridge\' Brahmas? They look like Blue Dark Brahmas to me.  What happened to their lacing?
Are they e^b Pg?

[grisaboy]

I think they could drop the part about \"laced\", since it can\'t be done and still maintain the wheaten pattern...based on what is accepted genetic science as of today.

Here is another link.
http://www.greenerpasturesfarm.com/ameraucanachickens.html
Check out the cockerel about halfway down the page.
Looks like someone has gotten pretty close to acheiving the impossible (based on accepted genetic science).

Curtis