Lavender by design...

[Guest]

Good evening everyone,
I\'ve been sitting on this one since I rejoined the Ameraucana club a year and a half ago and now I think it\'s time for me to act. Before joining the first time around I wanted to create a large fowl Lavender (insert whatever breed you like, lol), so when I heard that there were members of the Ameraucana club that were working along similar lines I jumped on board without hesitation. Unfortunately for me, \"life\" happens, and all of my poultry projects have been in stasis since our big move from California. Now we\'re getting to the point in our lives where we can start truly rebuilding. I\'m getting a slow start on the large fowl Black Gold birds now, which gives me some relief from the guilty feelings that I\'ve been holding on to... I told Mike and John that I would work on them a long time ago and it\'s only been recently that I\'ve been able to. Now my sights are set on getting the stock I need to get my large fowl Lavenders going, BUT, I\'d like to run my thoughts by everyone just to see how the other members feel about my approach. So here goes...

Considering that I always look 3-4 steps ahead before I make a move, I have been pondering the problems and issues involved in making large fowl lavenders. #1, the only breeds in the USA that even have the lavender gene are bantams, as the large fowl lavender pit games seem to have been lost in the sands of time. So right off the bat there are size limiting genes to deal with, some are sex-linked and some are not. Problem #2 would be tertiary phenotypes in all the breeds of lavender bantams, such as incorrect skin color, dermal melanin blockers, feathered legs, radical comb types, etc., etc... Not to be over looked would be egg color genetics and production qualities such as rate of lay, fertility and shell thickness. Daunting to say the least...

Here is what I\'m thinking of doing... I\'d like to cross a male Lavender Old English bantam over Black Orpington hens first. The way I see it, this will give me the least amount of negative genetics that need to be removed. Skin color would be white, egg shell color is light and the general egg quality and rate of lay is there already. Selecting for comb type wouldn\'t be overly complicated as the orpingtons have a single comb. The general body shape should work well with the Ameraucana\'s and I\'ll have an immediate size gain using the larger Orpingtons as the first cross to bantams. Considering my other breed options, I\'m thinking that this cross will be the most advantageous in the long run. The only thing I haven\'t worked out yet is whether or not I\'ll take the F1 OE-Orp hens and mate them to a Black Ameraucana male, then mate their offspring to each other, OR, mate the F1 OE-Orp siblings to each other first to produce lavender F2 females, which I\'ll  mate with a Black Ameraucana male in the following year. It will take me just as long either way, but my first choice will put me a whole generation ahead in attaining Ameraucana \"type\" as they\'ll be 75% Ameraucana by year three. I\'m not worried about losing the lav gene as all the F1\'s will have one copy of it, so half their offspring will have it as well.

I realize that many of you are probably looking at getting results faster, but I want to do this the right way and get birds that are definitely \"Ameraucana\" without having to focus on earlobe and feathered leg issues for the next 10 years. Please let me know of any issues or problems that I may have missed. I need to take \"everything\" in to consideration ahead of time as the end results will be the birds I\'ll be offering to all our members as well as the general public, as \"Lavender Ameraucanas\" once they are true to type and prove to breed true to form with predictability. Can anyone think of a white skinned fowl (that is available in the USA) that would be closer in type to Ameraucanas than the Orpingtons? If there\'s a better cross I would certainly look in to them. Have I covered all my bases??? Criticize my plans......... PLEASE!  

Regards,
Dan

[bantamhill]

Dan,

I started from basically the same point Old English lavender x black Ameraucana. The size jump on the male side has been very good and one would never know the pullets where half bantam. (I only hatched pullets!)

My question would be why not start with black Ameraucana large fowl or see if you can pick up a lavendar cock that is 50% Ameraucana?

Michael

[Guest]

Hi Michael,
Basically I\'m looking to \'super-size\' the half bantams I use before crossing them in to the Ameraucanas. It can be really difficult to get size back when you cross bantams to breeds that weigh only 5-6 pounds. I\'m also looking at the immediate benefit of the egg production qualities that should be gained from commercial hatchery birds. Also, by using specimens from another breed I\'m hoping to broaden the genetic depth of my lines so they\'ll have something more than \"just a new color\" to offer Ameraucana breeders.

Do you know where I can find Lavender Ameraucans to start with? At 50% ameraucana my guess would be that the F1\'s were mated back to their siblings to produce the F2 generation. I wasn\'t aware that there were any to be had.

If skin and leg color weren\'t issues I would have preferred Jersey Giants or Javas as those would work well in my other lavender large fowl projects. As is, I\'m only getting the Black Orpington hens for a one time hatch season, then they\'re gone.

Regards,
Dan

[Mike Gilbert]

Dan, have you checked the standard weights for Ameraucana large fowl?    They are supposed to be moderate in size, with the standard calling for 6 1/2 lb cocks, 5 1/2 lb cockerels, 5 1/2  lb hens, and 4 1/2 lb pullets.    John and Michael already have lavender colored f-2 generation bantams bred from half Ameraucana stock.   I would take a few of those females and mate them with a LF black pure Ameraucana cockerel.   Going the other way, sometimes the bantam males can\'t get the job done with large fowl females.    But I have never had a problem with getting fertility with large males over bantam females.   I believe many of these lavender half breeds are half D\'Anvers, and it is easy to eliminate the cushion comb later on when color and size are restored.  It sometimes is difficult to tell phenotypically which are single comb carriers.       In my experience, it is not all that difficult to restore the proper size and weight.   In fact, all the large fowl wheatens were originally the result of crossing bantam wheatens with multi colored large fowl easter eggers.    And there are some really good sized wheaten large fowl now.   Having said all that, feel free to do it the way you like, as the more strains that are developed the greater the genetic pool available to other breeders.   Good luck!

[John]

Dan,
My first thought is the same as Michael\'s about why not start with LF blacks, but I know how hard it is to breed back up to size regardless of what can be done theoretically.  Those bantam genes will haunt you and by going over-sized on the LF side you may have the compensation needed.
I would still suggest starting with the biggest black Ameraucana LF cock obtainable and use him over some F2 lavender bantam pullets.  I think you\'ll get there quicker.
The LF black strain I bred was from Australorps and I think most of the LF blacks and blues around the country are descended from them whether they are from Sand Hill or Paul Smith.  Paul and Jerry DeSmidt have bred some real show stoppers.  They are great layers too.  Wayne Meredith has done the most to get good size in the LF Ameraucanas IMHO.  Maybe he used Giants.  I don\'t know, but a few years ago I walked down the row cock birds he had and they would beat any I\'ve seen show if they were only judged on size.  
I should have a few extra F2 birds for sale at the National meet, here in Michigan, or at the Crossroads show.  They are all lavender bantams with some single, walnut and rosecombs I think.  They are 1/2 black Ameraucana, 1/4 self blue d\'Anver and 1/4 self blue OE.  As Mike said Michael may have some available and maybe Susie Winder(?).
Either way you go, welcome to this project.  We need breeders with your knowledge and practical methods.

[Mike Gilbert]

To the best of my knowledge Wayne never outcrossed to any breed, and we used to consult with each other on a regular basis.    Wayne was the one who created large fowl wheatens and blue-wheatens by breeding them up from bantams.  He just raised thousands and selected for what he wanted, which was size since he was selling them for meat, primarily to the Asian community in the Milwaukee area.
But bigger is not necessarily better.    They should be standard weights as listed in the A.P.A. Standard of Perfection.

[Guest]

Thanks for inviting me John.
I\'m very pleased to be a part of these projects and the club.

Michael Muenks and I have been in contact. He\'s making arrangements for me to receive some black gold bantam and large fowl eggs, and lavender F2 eggs. Maybe I\'ll run two separate pens for the next two years and see how the OE-Orp cross line stacks up against the line of F2 lavs that I\'ll be mating with Paul\'s Black LF Ameraucanas. I really wasn\'t anticipating that anyone would have lavender ameraucana crosses that they could share, so I was very excited when Michael presented me with the offer.

I\'ve made test bantam-large fowl crosses in the past, switching which was the bantam male and female side and the results can be dramatically different. Bantam females do typically produce larger F1 males, with the F1 females being about or barely larger than their mothers. Even though there can be some sex-linked dwarfism involved with using bantam males, I prefer starting with them because of the larger F1 females that are produced. I also have found that the F2 males produced in this way are larger than their counter parts. Besides, the size of the eggs produced in the end can be greatly affected depending on lineage. All my F1 and F2 Spanish-Silkie hens produce small eggs that more closely resemble their Silkie cousins, regardless of the fact that the F2 hens are more than twice the size of a Silkie. Even though I lost several silkie males while trying to achieve the opposite cross, silkie over spanish, the offspring that finally resulted surpassed their counterparts greatly. Egg size was split between silkies and spanish in the F1s and nearly identical in the F2s. So I tend to prefer the F1 generation to be made from a bantam male to a large fowl female when I\'m working the breeding to make large fowl.

I\'m glad I decided to discuss this before I began, you\'ve both given me some sound information and ideas. Perhaps it would be best if I worked on the lavenders using your strategy as well as mine... sort of like an insurance policy, lol. Besides, if all goes well with both lines I\'ll have vastly separate genepools to work with and that will benefit everyone.

BTW, after skimming through some of the past postings on the subject (very easy using the \'search\' function btw) of creating new varieties one of Michael\'s replies got me to thinking of other varieties that can be gleaned from the lavenders and the black golds. So....... I bought some Speckled Sussex chicks. White skin, bay eyes and horn beak. I\'ll have every gene I need to make Millie fleur, porceilens/pearls, LACED in all colors and mottled. From 2 crosses I should be able to get fair specimens for each variety. I\'ll keep everyone posted on my progress as time goes on.

Regards,
Dan

[John]

I tend to prefer the F1 generation to be made from a bantam male to a large fowl female when I\'m working the breeding to make large fowl.

I also prefer it, but as Mike points out fertility is generally better with a LF male over bantam females, unless you use artificial insemination.  Last year I rotated two lavender bantam cockerels over a LF hen.  I trimmed around the vents on all the breeders.  I only ended up with one chick after about ten weeks of breeding.  

Perhaps it would be best if I worked on the lavenders using your strategy as well as mine... sort of like an insurance policy, lol. Besides, if all goes well with both lines I\'ll have vastly separate genepools to work with and that will benefit everyone.

That sounds like the way to go.

They should be standard weights as listed in the A.P.A. Standard of Perfection.

I think we need to make improvements in this area.  It is guess work to look at birds in a show and know if they meet the standard weights.  I do think it is easy to see that generally the LF silvers and sometimes the wheatens and whites are smaller than the blacks and blues.  If they are underweight they need to be bred bigger and in that case it would be better.
I also am trying to breed some varieties of bantams smaller.  Not smaller than the standard, but smaller than what they are.  I haven\'t put the bantams on a scale, but if the wheatens and whites are where they should be some of the buffs and blacks are too big.

[Guest]

John,
I had multiple problems breeding bantams to large fowl but much of it had to do with the individual and breed temperments. Sumatra hens ruthlessly killed every bantam male I introduced so I had no choice but to mate sumatra males over bantam females. The gigantic (by comparison) Spanish bred the bantam silkie hens with no trouble, the bantam males on the other hand had trouble catching the large fowl hens and treading them. I fixed the latter issue simply by close confinement, I put the pairs in 18\" x 18\" rabbit cages. Conversly, my Japanese males can tread any size hen regardless of where they are, lol. As with most things, situations and conditions dictate how every thing plays out.

Mike,
Please accept my apologies for not responding to the point you made. It wasn\'t intentional. I do agree with you, and with John, about weights being in compliance with the standards. John\'s point about not knowing just by looking is a sore subject in some circles, equally for good & bad reasons. I\'m willing to bet cash money that nobody has seen a scale at a show in over 10 years. I\'ve heard stories of exhibitors getting highly aggitated and leaving shows at the mear threat of a scale being pulled out of moth balls. My personal feeling on the matter.......... use scales. Proper feathering also comes in to play when considering weight and the trend I\'ve noticed over the last several years is to make birds fluffier or have looser feathering. A cochin feathered leghorn would look like an 8 pound giant, lol.

That being said, actual weights within my own flocks isn\'t directly in my focus at this point. What I\'m looking at for the time being is general confirmation, correctness of colorations and patterns and basic production characteristics. In my mind\'s eye, weight is lumped in with many of the other \"fine tuning\" points that I\'ll be taking in to consideration after I\'ve gotten the macro-traits locked in. Selecting for a slightly over sized flock is, IMHO, far simpler to correct than having them be too small.

I would like to point out that it is a good idea in any flock to keep specimens that cover a slight range. Aside from keeping a \'healthy level\' of genetic variation within a flock, having a few birds that are slightly over-size, a few under-size and the median of the flock just right, the breeder will have the necessary genes around to fix minor variations later on. In other words, instead of having to go out and find a smaller or larger male to fix a size issue within my flock, I would have related birds already.

Dan