Incomplete dominance of birchen over wheaten

[bryngyld]

Is there a phenotype (visual appearance) that shows a bird carries both the birchen gene and the wheaten gene?  ...or birchen and any of the other E locus guys?

When I crossed the buff on my large fowls some of the hens look more wild type.  They might also carry the birchen, so it would really help if you could actually see incomplete dominance of birchen in the actual bird.

[John]

I don\'t know of anyway to tell the genotype by the phenotype of adult birds that appear mixed.  The chick down is the best indicator that I know of.
We know the order of the E-locus genes over each other.  I have crossed wild type (silvers) with wheaten (wheatens) and noticed all the chicks hatched with the wild type pattern as expected.  Then crossing a wheaten male over the F1 pullets I could tell by the chick down which chicks were pure wheaten and which carried the wild type, since they had the \"chipmunk\" stripes.  
If you cross birchen (brown reds) over wheaten (buffs) I would assume the chicks would be mostly black with some red or buff.

[Mike Gilbert]

John is correct.    The black golds were made by crossing a birchen based male over buff (wheaten based) females.   Assuming sex linked gold from both parents, the chicks / offspring should resemble black golds in the first generation.
But if these F-1 \'s are mated together, there will be a wide variation of color in the F-2\'s.    It would be better to mate the F-1\'s back to  pure birchen based breeders (brown reds), then there would be much better uniformity of color.   Does this answer your question?

[bryngyld]

I got a LOT of buffs, a few dark birds with solid gold necks and some sort of whitish birds in the F1.  In the dark ones that SORT of resembled black golds, I have ticking or something.  I still get buffs and striped chicks in the F3. so I  assume the buff carried the wild type gene as well as wheaten and a bunch of other stuff.  I actually have a few laced birds, but their feathers are \"messy\".  I\'m not sure if they are close to what I want or not.

I guess I don\'t know exactly what birchen does... and why we say it is incompletely dominant.  Dominant genes show.  What do incompletely dominate genes do?

[bryngyld]

OH!!!  I thought Silvers were birchen, too.  They are wild type?  Now, I really am confused!

[John]

You can go back and review the proposed E-locus genes.
http://marsa_sellers.tripod.com/geneticspages/page3.html

The order of dominance among the generally accepted E-locus alleles is: E>ER>e+>eb>es>ebc>ey. The birchen allele is incompletely dominant to dominant wheaten and the wild-type alleles...

[Jean]

Mike,

Would that cross still work with a birchen that looks black?  I could get Lyne a black cockerel possibly this year that is genetically a birchen to use......

That is if Lyne would like to try it.

Jean

[bryngyld]

Yes, I\'ve been reading the genetics there and also on the Pekin site.  The Pekin page seems to be easier for me to understand.  

I understand most of WHAT they are saying, but NOT what it looks like.  I didn\'t know buffs were wheaten, either.

If a Silver is wild, not birchen, why does it look like a black gold (without gold)?  Maybe I need a picture book genetics textbook!

[John]

Check out the photos of the chicks and adult birds on the website.  Birchen (brown red) and wild type (silver) down patterns are quite different.  Also, the adult females look very different.  The adult males are very similar in pattern even though one is gold and the other silver in color.  Note the wild type males have color (silver or gold) in thier wing bay area that birchen males don\'t.  

[Mike Gilbert]

Jean: yes, it would probably work if you are SURE the black bird is birchen based.    Are you going by leg color?   If so are you sure that is a reliable test?    
Lyne:  Sounds like you may have crossed buff with wild type instead of birchen?   Then too, I have heard that some buffs are e>b based instead of e>W.   If you are going for black gold and/or blue gold keep breeding back to pure birchen based birds, selecting for the most lacing and shafting.  Incomplete dominance means two different traits blend or cause something new instead of exhibiting the parents\' traits.
An example would be crossing rose comb with pea comb and getting cushion combs in the offspring, as in Chanteclers.
John:   Where can I get my wife that shade of lipstick you used on the picture of the silver?  Didn\'t know you were a connoisseur!

[John]

going by leg color?

I think the black birds with slate/blue legs are birchen, but may not be pure and are probably split for extended black and birchen.  

shade of lipstick

I\'m working on a new line of cosmetics...Oh never mind.

[bryngyld]

Well, I\'m thinking the wild type must have been hiding in the buff from Jay.  I crossed him over my bantam black gold hens!  

Thank you so much for the photo lesson, John.  I must be a visual learner.  Well, I also read somewhere where Silvers were birchen... I didn\'t make it up myself.

YES, I really appreciate the cushion comb telling me that I have one pea comb gene!  I still get single combs now and again from Jay\'s buff\'s kids (and lack of muffs and beards).

Well, all I really have to do is keep putting the eggs in the incubator and culling everything that doesn\'t look something like a black gold.  ^_^

[John]

Silvers were birchen

Maybe they meant birchen (the variety, not the E-locus gene) is silver as opposed to gold in color.  Brown red is gold where birchen is silver.

hiding in the buff from Jay

I know that Jay crossed in white Ameraucanas and show quality buff Orpingtons with his strain of buff Ameraucanas.  The whites were probably extended black and maybe birchen based and the Orps I believe are wheaten based, so don\'t know where wild type could have come from.

[bryngyld]

Well, at least I know that going back to the LF brown red will get back the birchen genes.  I have a straw necked rooster from black breeding, so I have the lace color... now to just spin the straw into gold...  ^_^

[Jean]

Yes I was going by leg color.  To my knowledge a genetically black bird with white skin cannot have blue legs.

I could be wrong, but that was what I infered from one of the genetics guys......

Lyne, I think the way to tell the genetic difference on the buffs in layman terms is to see what color legs they hatch out with.

Jean