thoughts on buff and leg color

[jerryse]

This will be year 6 of trying to improve leg color on buff bantams.Buff is a complex color in that no one has identified all the genes and modifiers involved.I am beginning to believe that these genes also affect leg color.Crossing in wheaten or other colors gives a dark slate leg but once good buff is achieved they seem to revert to light slate.The polish breed has dark slate on white laced buff.I believe dominate white has turned golden to buff and removed the black lace.Dominate white enhances or darkens slate legs and beak.The sebright breed now has white laced buff with dark slate legs.We may have bumped into a genetic reality in this case.Anyone care to share your results on this subject?

[Jean]

A few of my birds carry what I believe is brown and I sometimes get chicks that hatch with dark legs.  I know this is not correct in terms of what we are supposed to base the buff on, but I keep it in my line.

[Mike Gilbert]

Jean, what leads you to believe some of your buffs carry brown instead of wheaten at the e locus?   The standard for buffs just says slate, not light slate nor dark slate.   As long as my buffs have some shade of slate, I don\'t worry about the exact shade.    IMHO, there are other important things to breed for that would take precedence, such as egg color and breed type.  

[Jean]

I believe this because wheaten based chicks will hatch with pink legs and the ones I am referring to hatch with a dark brownish color that turns slate in a few weeks.  These birds end up having very dark slate legs.

Also some of my chicks hatch with a partridge like pattern, but I don\'t keep those.

And I have some that look like they may be carrying the dun gene.

patridge like markings:


off colored chick, maybe dun:


chick with dark legs:


normal wheaten based chick with light legs:

[angora831]

I realize that without the Pg gene there isn\'t a defined pattern on the chick, but in your case what would be the cause of the coloration that you have shown?  Just curiosity on my part.

Ken

[Mike Gilbert]

Jean, what is the eye color on the adult birds that hatch with brown legs and end up with very dark slate legs?   I\'ll explain when I have your answer.

[Jean]

They are more on the brown side, but the others that are wheaten based have eyes almost the same color as their buff color feathers.  Which in my opinion is a little light.

[Mike Gilbert]

Jean, where do you think the eb came from?   I know John used Buff Laced Polish, and they would be based on ER.  So I was thinking if you had some of that blood it might be the source of those dark legs at hatch.   Dark brown eyes would be another clue, because I think you only get them on E and ER.

[jwoodhaven]

We hatch the Buff Laced Polish and I can tell you that they do not hatch with the slate leg color the color develops as they start getting older just like in the Wheaten.

[Jean]

I think it came from some of my very first buffs that came from McKinney poultry.  They were very nice in color, but a bit on the small side.

I had difficulty hatching the eggs and if they did hatch at least half of them would die within a day or two.  I ended up breeding them with buffs from John and Paul.

The chicks that did survive from that first line I had, had the dark legs.

Mike do you think that the second chick has carrying the dun gene?  It appears to be buff on the head, wings and tail.  The back is a champagne color.  Any thoughts???

[John]

I understand that the buff laced Polish are supposed to be ER based, but also am under the impression that all solid buff birds are only based on eWh (ey?) or eb.  
I had LF buffs hatching out with dark legs a few years ago when Jean got some and remember including about 6 in her order, only to have enough chicks to fill a box.  Though culling day-old chicks more severely over the past few years I\'ve eliminated them from showing up.
I still get a few with dark spots on their heads and originally thought it was eb showing up, but now think it may be caused be some modifying gene like Pg.

[angora831]

I got a few of these chicks from John last year and out of the group ended up with a rooster and hen that survived.  I have used both in my cross with Partridge Rocks this year and I am waiting for the eggs to hatch.  Up until now I have just had Black Ameraucans and Partridge Rocks crossed and have all black chicks hatch with legs from dark yellow-brown to dark slate(?).  It will be interesting to see what the Buff gives me.

Ken

[Mike Gilbert]

Mike do you think that the second chick has carrying the dun gene?  It appears to be buff on the head, wings and tail.  The back is a champagne color.  Any thoughts???

So I guess it will remain a mystery for now.   But I\'m still leaning toward the ER (maybe split) hypothesis.  Jean, I never hatched anything with dun, so would not be the person to ask.   My suggestion would be to toe punch or wing band these chicks, record it, and see what develops.   There is always so much to learn in this business.

[John]

I got a few of these chicks from John last year

I just want to explain to onlookers that I purposely sent them to Ken for his partridge Ameraucana project to experiment with.  

McKinney poultry

I think I\'d heard they got thier start from Paul, but even if not they would go back to my original breeding.  Arne Schimdt and I developed LF buffs indendently, but he got some of mine to cross to his after a few years.  I\'m not aware of anyone else developing LF buffs.

[John]

The standard for buffs just says slate, not light slate nor dark slate. As long as my buffs have some shade of slate, I don\'t worry about the exact shade.

Yes!  As a matter of fact I am more concerned with the ones that end up with very dark slate.  My fear (not terrified) is that they may carry some of the genes that they shouldn\'t.
I went into my archives and found some photos of \"buff\" chicks from 6 years ago.  Note I culled and didn\'t breed from the dark ones that hatched with dark legs, but they did continue to show up for years.  Putting 2 and 2 together Mike\'s \"ER (maybe split) hypothesis\" may be reasonable.  A problem would be that if ER is dominant to eWh I would think the dark chicks wouldn\'t come from true \"buff\" colored breeders.  Maybe it was hidden in the under color, when hetero, and the all dark chicks only showed when they were ER/ER?  
From the phenotype in these photos you can see why I thought they may be eb.  Jean, do any of yours look like these?